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442 & 744T, 788T, or Fusion?


misosound

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Hi.

My partner and I are more or less starting out. Currently we use a SD 302 and 722, which despite their I/O limitations have served us very well.

We have just landed our first feature film job, so we've decided that it's time to upgrade our equipment.

Originally, we were leaning towards purchasing a 442 mixer and 744T recorder since we don't anticipate using more than 4 input channels and it seemed the closest match for our current setup. However, lately we've been considering the 788T since its cost is roughly equivalent to the 442 and 744T combined. If we go the 788T route and get the CL-8 controller bar, are there any disadvantages to a discrete mixer and recorder setup? Or is the 788T clearly the way to go?

We've also briefly eyed the Zaxcom Fusion which from all accounts I've read is an excellent recorder. But is the Fusion an impractical choice when not paired with a mixer?

Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated!

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My advice is always... buy once.  Keep the 302 and the 722 and buy the 788T.

For my money, I'd buy the 788T a Mackie and the PSC Powermax with a nice inverter to run the Mackie.  It's a good setup for your first feature, and many more to come.  These will serve you well for years to come, and you "upgrade" later when you get bigger shows and more money.

Congrats on your first feature.

Robert

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Hello , my advice is , wait for a while to the 788t been fixed complately ! There is many issues the 788t users experiencing , me too . I actually didn't worked with Deva's yet but , as i know they work terrific without rest . So , the Fusion should be good idea to buy , there is also Cantar or HHB's new device ( if you trust :)

      Regards ,

      Gürkan ÖZKAYA

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Hello ranger14 . We stated using the 788t before SD call back the units . The first issue i saw was timecode failure , the timecode was always changing when i turn-off and on . Never stayed stable . And i lost 2 jobs on this unit , the first was a whole commercial shot . After all those issues , SD announced they want the units back , then we send the unit . After we get 788t back i lost second job , a part of a movie . The device came back with the same trouble . Now , we still have the 788t but i don't use it anymore , i go with 744 and 702 . That's why i say , try the Deva's .

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I think it's like a familiar selling strategy of manufactures . They sell faulty products intentionally , and clean up from service dues . Different brands from different parts of the world use that strategy sometimes , mostly on electronic industry . That's why i think the people should wait a little more until 788t been fixed complately , users still notify different troubles on forums .

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" I think it's like a familiar selling strategy of manufactures . They sell faulty products intentionally , and clean up from service dues . "

sorry, but I believe that is never the case of the professional products manufacturers we deal with,  NEVER!!

It sounds like Gurkan was an "early adopter" of the 788T, but is not an early adopter type, and it does take a special type of person to stick their neck out early on new technology and deal with all the issues that are bound to arise.   These products we deal with today are all pretty much special purpose computers driven by operating software (aka firmware!) and the first to get these products will be the ones who will have to deal with the "growing pains" of the product maturing; that is why many folks wait a while before adopting the latest stuff, until the inevitable kinks (and they are inevitable, and every manufacturer has some!!) are resolved.

how can anyone even say the last part about "cleaning up up on service..."  since all that service is provided without cost to the customers; it is a huge cost to the manufacturer to recall their products (financial, as well as "face") and I think Gurkan is way out of line to suggest that any of our manufacturers would plan for it, and do it intentionally.  I believe Gurkan owes apologies to Sound Devices as well as Lectrosonics, Zaxcom, PSC, K-Tek, Aaton, Denecke, Fostex, Sennheiser, Schoeps, Kudelski (Nagra), Sonosax, SQN, and that is just the beginning of the long list of dedicated manufacturers who have provided not only top quality products, excellent support, upgrades, and fixes as needed for their products

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Here are a few of Fusions features I think you should consider. There are 2 Fusions available. The Fusion is a 10 track recorder with 8 analog inputs. The Fusion 12 is a 12 track recorder with 12 analog inputs.

The Fusion has an internal mixer and does not require any external mixing surface. Its ability to mix 16 inputs to 12 record tracks and 8 output buses make it a great choice for over the shoulder use and sound cart operation.

Fusions 8 hardware faders and 4 soft faders allow for fader control of 12 isolated inputs.

Any fader or faders can be setup as masters to control the 16 inputs.

The Fusion can record 12 isolated tracks  or any mix you like from its selection of 16 active inputs.

The Fusion draws very little power and gives off no heat. A single NP1 battery will run fusion for about 8 hours.

All tracks can be metered at the same time, any of 12 tracks can be instantly soloed, disk tracks and output buses can be metered at the same time.

Fusion 12 has 12 analog inputs and 8 digital inputs. 4 of the inputs can be used as camera returns.

Any input can be routed instantly with the touch screen to any output Pre or post fader.

Two mixing control surfaces the MIX8 and MIX12 convert the Fusion into a very powerful cart based mixer and recorder.

The  Fusion has effects, EQ, Notch filters, Soft Knee compressor, delay, and high pass filter.

Touch screen interface is the fastest and most intuitive way to get to any function quickly.

MARF operating system offers a audio file specific operating system that has many unique safeguards not found in FAT32 based recorders.

The Fusion writes to DVD-RAM in a very reliable manor even if the media is less than perfect.

If it is your intention to go over the shoulder the no moving parts feature is great for reliability. Motion and temperature are non factors.

The Fusion has a camera return input that is integrated into the headphone monitor so audio bag use with camera is very simple.

Slate mic and tone can also be routed to any output or recorded track.

There is much more but these are some of the stand out if not stand alone features.

If you have any operational questions I would be happy to answer your questions.

Best Wishes

Glenn 

gs@zaxcom.com

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I like all of this Glenn, except for the fact that all of your machines are on the higher end price-wise, yet you still charge extra to access features already built into the machine.  While I won't name names, you lost the sale of at least two machines because of needing to pay extra for features that nearly everyone will want.  Why not simply charge what you want, and include all the features?

I'll be in the market for another machine once things pick up a bit, and this would be a sticking point for me too.

Your machines are great.  I've used them.  Your engineering skills are masterful.  And virtually everyone who owns your products loves them.  But considering such a small market of consumers, I would consider policies that do not alienate your client base.  We sound mixers are an odd buch, and even the smallest things can put us off.

Just an honest opinion.

Robert

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However, lately we've been considering the 788T since its cost is roughly equivalent to the 442 and 744T combined. If we go the 788T route and get the CL-8 controller bar, are there any disadvantages to a discrete mixer and recorder setup? Or is the 788T clearly the way to go?

We've also briefly eyed the Zaxcom Fusion which from all accounts I've read is an excellent recorder. But is the Fusion an impractical choice when not paired with a mixer?

Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated!

Hi Paul and welcome to jw.sound.net!! 

I patronize both manufacturers (8 SD products and 8 Zaxcom products) and have received excellent customer service from both of them.  With great products, it comes down to which one best suits your needs.  You ask if the Fusion is an impractical choice when not paired with a mixer, yet you are comparing it to a 788t with the CL-8.  Both of these options give you 8 rotary faders, so the Fusion is no more impractical than the SD combo, imo.  If you want linear faders the 788t will require a dedicated mixer while the Fusion will work that way (that's what I do when I work on a cart), but also has the option of two different control surfaces as an alternative to a traditional mixer.  The Fusion has the same Hirose camera send as the 442 for over-the-shoulder work if needed.

The best idea is to get hands-on time with both machines and see which one turns your crank.  I dramatically prefer the user interface on the Fusion.  I find it much quicker to use and more intuitive than the Sound Devices interface.  I have used 702t (still own this) and 744t extensively, but not the 788t.  I have owned the Fusion for a year, love it, and have had no regrets.  I have not yet used the Fusion 12.  In my opinion, Sound Devices has placed too much priority on making their recorders as SMALL as possible and this makes them more difficult to use.  It reminds me of some of the criticism Apple received for the Air and now the new Shuffle.

Why not simply charge what you want, and include all the features?

I still don't understand why paying to unlock features offends people.  You use Boom Recorder, Robert, and they do the same thing.  What's wrong with charging people less who only want the two-track version of BR?  Software costs money to develop, just like hardware, and not everyone is interested in paying for the "luxury model".  Let those who want the feature pay for it, just like cars and every other product out there.  Certainly ProTools and other software developers operate this way.  I disagree that every sound mixer is interested in the Deva/Fusion effects package.  This is just my opinion.

So I say do your research and decide which you prefer.  I agree that it is wisest to buy for the long term.  That's harder to do these days, but is still a desirable goal.

Good luck and have fun!

Paul

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In an effort to make our recorders as cost effective as possible we look to strip out features that will allow us to justify a lower price in order to be as competitive as we can. The effects package that we developed for Deva cost a lot of money and time to develop. We realize that not everyone needs these features so we do make it an option to save the customer as much money as possible. If we made the effects package a standard feature it would raise the base price of the Fusion for all customers.

With the Fusion 12 we have decided to make nothing optional. All effects and 12 track recording is included. We often debate how we price things and what can be optional.  We do produce everything here in America so our cost of production is higher than our competitors.

It is always my goal to sell our products for as low a price as we can. Please understand that since our products have more features than competing products they cost more to produce and should be worth more as well.

Glenn

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Excellent support ? Sorry but I'm not trying to put the blame on somebody unjustly and don't think owe apology to anyone ! I just told what i experienced . I lost jobs , send the device , get it back again in the same condition . So , studiomprd , really sorry but I don't classify that kind of support as " Excellent " . If we talk about the professionalism of this industry , so we are not less professionals than anybody ! But it seems " we " aren't classed as professionals ! Friend , I don't know if you ever experienced things like that before but it's hard to say to the producers that they should dub . I get the unit back with the same failure and lost another job , nobody apologized , even nobody asked like " Hey , how is going ? "  . Sorry studiomprd but I don't owe apology to no body . SD performs any kind of strategy , or not , that's their problem . I don't have a grudge against them ,  I also would like to say that I'm very very happy with 744 and 702 , that's another thing . What I talk about is , the unit really wasn't ready to ship and it wasn't my fault , but I paid the price !  By the way , it doesn't matter what kind of industry is that , trade is trade and the manufacturers should perform what they should perform . My friend , I promise that I order you beer as you wish , but I don't join you here .

        Gürkan Özkaya

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Not a very good analogy (BR costs only $260.  The 2-track version was an afterthought, I think, at $20), but I get where you're coming from, Paul.

I still think that if you make the hardware and the software, then it should all be in there.  Price your items at what you see is fair.  Each digital recorder is unique in its own way.  If your machine and software outperforms others, or people dig its usability more than others, then people will buy yours.  Price obviously doesn't seem to matter much here.  I would like to know that if I bought a Deva, that it had all the bits available already inside.  No decision to NOT buy the "extra" stuff, only to get burned on set needing it and not having it.  If it's worth having, then it's worth including it in all machines and having the price reflect that.

Robert

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I like all of this Glenn, except for the fact that all of your machines are on the higher end price-wise, yet you still charge extra to access features already built into the machine.

I do understand how paying extra to activate a function already loaded into gear might bother some people. Presumably the manufacturer made a suitable profit on the recorder or transmitter with the basic sale or they wouldn't have supplied the item at that price. It's annoys the owner to have capabilities present but not be able to use them unless they pay a toll to receive an unlock code.

This situation is an outgrowth of software based equipment. We've had equipment that might be configured with different capabilities for a long time but the various assets required purchasing a bit of hardware. The classic Nagra, for example, had the capability of self-resolving tapes. To some extent, this feature was built into all the sync Nagras in the 4 series but activating it required purchasing the QSLI circuit board and screwing it into the proper slot inside the Nagra. To some extent, the functionality one purchased with the QSLI was already in the Nagra and some of the cost of that circuit board represented a recovery of development expense for the totality of the circuits in the Nagra. But the purchase of the QSLI didn't rankle people because one received a tangible article for that (loosely, from memory) $350.

With software controlled gear like the Zaxcom products, virtually all of the cost of developing features is the time and effort spent writing and testing software. Additional cost of making circuit boards is minimal and it may well be cheaper to make everything in one manufacturing run. So, they sell a fully developed item and hope that enough people will activate enough features to make the endeavor worthwhile. Rather than thinking of it as a rip-off to get features already present, think of it as an opportunity to get in the game inexpensively while you determine what features you really need regularly.

We all understand that a Sound Devices 744T must cost more than a 702T. Everyone accepts this because, although they are the same size and configuration, the boxes are obviously different and one has more knobs than the other. Zaxcom has simply found a way to permit you to try out the system with a convenient upgrade path.

It may well be that, at the base cost, the manufacturer is not making a profit. Certainly they are not making enough of a profit to continue to develop an ever expanding list of features.

David Waelder

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Guest Ken Mantlo

Robert,

What about the people that want the basic features of the Deva but can't pay for the fully blinged out version?  You are saying that Zaxcom should take away this option and lose that market and disappoint those people.  If you want those features pay for them up front, if not then enjoy the base model at a price reduction.  It's like buying a standard Honda Accord or one that's fully loaded.  You can choose.  I don't find it to be a conspiracy, Zaxcom is very up front with what's available.  The best part of this type of upgrade is that if in the future you decide you want the blinged out version, you don't have to sell your old machine, you just upgrade it.  Cool!

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Paul wrote me off list to clarify something and I figured I'd put part of the response (and more now) here as well.

Fusion has a trim screen to adjust coarse gain on all inputs as well as a channel screen accessible by one touch to adjust coarse gain with a touchscreen fader for each channel.  You have to experience it to see if you like it.  I find it's easy to get the gain structure so that the knobs function as fine gain control just like those on the 442 or the CL-8.  That is how it is designed and I use the Fusion as mixer/recorder over-the-shoulder this way all the time.  Mixing multiple inputs to a mono mix is tough with any rotary knob setup.  They are better suited to riding gain while multi-tracking and linear faders are better suited to mixing.

You have to experience the touchscreen to know how quick it is to navigate.  Firmware updates and additional screens do not slow your navigation as you never need to scroll through them.  How many apps would you add to your iPhone if you had to scroll through them all?  Perhaps a silly analogy since we buy a recorder for one primary purpose, but both manufacturers continue to add functionality, some of which you will want and some you'll never use.  One could argue that Sound Devices support and updates are better.  I'm sure they sell more recorders (with music market and non-TC versions), have more people working on it, and are less of a boutique company than Zaxcom.  Many Deva/Fusion owners find Zaxcom slightly frustrating but worth the trouble.

PG

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" Sound Devices has placed too much priority on making their recorders as SMALL as possible and this makes them more difficult to use.  "

yes, that is one of their priorities, a conscious company strategy to make high quality, highly portable products; the 788T has a bigger target market than those of us here, or even on ramps ...

sometimes we think we (folks on the groups) are the entire professional sound universe!  consider the fact that no one here at jwsound was in favor of the IATSE contract, but a majority of the eligible voters who voted approved it! and after all our discussions, which I'm certain motivated us to cast votes, only about a third of the membership even voted at all!  maybe "we" are not the majority ??

" Why not simply charge what you want, and include all the features? " that is certainly one marketing strategy, but look at how many products are available in multiple versions, like "standard", or "LE", "Pro", or "gold" or even "platinum"...  this is true in both hardware and software based products, both professional products, consumer products, and crossover  products.  at any given time how many models does apple offer?? and when you order they also offer "options"...

" Not a very good analogy (BR costs only $260.  The 2-track version was an afterthought, I think, at $20), " sorry, it is an excellent point: the very limited version gets folks to download and try the product  Some companies even offer limited free trials of the full version, another market strategy!.

" Price obviously doesn't seem to matter much here "

whoa!! go back to your original post, where you said the extra cost for the options was an issue!

" I would like to know that if I bought a Deva, that it had all the bits available already inside. "  it probably does, just ready to be unlocked!!

BTW, this is not at all new: back in the 1960's I worked for a major computer manufacturer as a "tech rep", an earlier version of todays "tech support".  we introduce 2 models, at different prices, simultaneously, the B-2500 and the B-3500. the main difference was the lower cost model had an additional circuit installed that was a "cycle stealer" that effectively slowed the CPU by stealing every other cycle; the other differences were simply marketing restrictions as to what options could be configured.  how about Intel "Celeron" processors, crippled Pentium's ???  David Waelder made an excellent comparison to the analog Nagra 4 recorders.

" No decision to NOT buy the "extra" stuff, only to get burned on set needing it and not having it.  If it's worth having, then it's worth including it in all machines and having the price reflect that. "

I would argue the opposite:  if you had a Nagra 4 without the optional resolver but needed it one day on set, you had to order it, and install it. BTW, the crystal was optional, too, and there were also versions that could switch between 50 and 60 Hz, and separate non-switchable 50 and 60 Hz versions of the crystal board! there were also 12V T power preamps that did not supply Phantom power, and if you....

So even back then, we were choosing options based on our needs, known -or projected- and upgrading as needed.  often now the upgrade can be instantaneous: provide the credit card info, and receive the unlock codes in seconds!!

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" don't think owe apology to anyone ! I just told what i experienced "

I still think you do!  you came to an unwarranted conclusion that you expressed as a totally incorrect fact: " They sell faulty products intentionally , and clean up from service dues "

" I don't have a grudge against them " though it sort of sounds like you don't have warm fuzzy happy feelings.

Sorry you got burned, but early adopters have been going through these trials for years, and we all already know the risks, at least almost all of us!  I would never begin a job using a new toy that I had not already practiced with and tested out enough to have solid confidence in it being capable;  early adopters have usually added the new stuff in as the secondary to their already in place reliable primary tools until it is proven; or another variation of playing it safe would be using a known, tested backup.  We did this when we transitioned to DAT tapes, we did this (and still run backup's) with file based recorders.

" I promise that I order you beer as you wish  "  I look forward to that, and the second one is on me!

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