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Finder's fees and referrals


Paul Graff

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I thought this might be an interesting subject for discussion, prompted I suppose by Scott Farr's offer of 10% kickback to anyone who hooks him up with a job.  Is this a common, or even heard-of, practice by any of you?  It does not offend me, but I guess I think it is kind of strange, so I'm wondering how others feel.  Maybe I am off base and this is the norm, so I would like to know.

I have referred many jobs to fellow sound people over the years and have never wanted, asked for, or received a finder's fee.  I have also never been asked for or paid a finder's fee to another mixer.  (I have probably indirectly paid the equivalent of a finder's fee when I did a some days for Atlantic TV a few years ago and I'm sure a few camera ops have made money off of me when they've sub-hired me as part of a package deal, but these situations are not what I am talking about.)

My personal experience is that carefully practiced referring of fellow sound people is a win for everyone and is worth the trouble (I know plenty of mixers who disagree with this POV).  I find that producers appreciate hiring someone I can vouch for; the mixer, of course, gets the job; and I benefit at some point in the future when that mixer is double-booked and returns the favor.  If a producer is interested in getting a referral, I ask some questions to determine who would be a good fit for the job and give some names and numbers.  I always follow up with the producer to see how it went and make sure they were happy.  My reputation is on the line when I refer someone.

Look forward to hearing other points of view.

PG

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I worked with a camera guy for several years doing Atlantic TV gigs and he never asked for a kickback, just a thank you note sufficed; but Atlantic decided they couldn't afford me anymore and haven't booked me for over 10 months. I haven't worked for another booking agency since nor paid a finders fee to anyone. IMHO is best to offer a 10% discount to returning costumers. Still not sure if this is the way to go...

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Well, if what we are talking about here is a 10% fee for passing jobs between sound mixers because you are already booked, I don't like it.  I pass work on to people I trust, that I think will work out well with the job at hand and who I think might do the same for me if the situation was reversed.  This isn't a relationship that I think ought to be monetized--it is based on trust, "casting your bread on the waters", and building relationships.  I don't know how it is for you guys, but I couldn't get along w/o referrals from other mixers (who I always thanks), and I want producers who shoot in my town to be well taken care of if I can't make their dates--that's good for everybody.  Referring to someone who is paying you for the referral clouds the situation for me--and tempts one to recommend the person who pays you instead of the best person for the job, if they aren't the same person.  The assumption on the part of the producer you are recommending to is that you are giving them an honest referral of someone you feel can do the job as well as you, and they would probably take your referral with a grain of salt (at least) if they knew you were getting a cut.  Suffice to say I'm outside of ENG-world, where I think this kind of thing happens frequently, if more formally w/ crewing services.  For big jobs like features or long commercials the amount of money involved would be substantial, and I can't imagine anyone accepting such a deal.

Philip Perkins

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I'm with you guys.  I would never expect to give or receive a referral fee for a job given or received by me.  I hope people refer me because they trust I will make them look good by doing a good job for the producers in the absence of their first choice.  And I refer people I trust because I want people who call me to know that if I am not available I still want them to have a good mixer for their project.

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My brother Moe and I have referred many jobs to other mixers outside our circle and never even considered a kick back/fee for doing so. We just try to help our clients and friends fill a job with a quality mixer. We all know each other here in LA and know the differences in style or approach to the job. Some sound crews may be a great replacements for one director and not so great for another. That is our main consideration. We only ask for the gentleman's agreement not to try and steal said clients. The pro's all know this and are happy to fill in the month with another gig. The Rats just think short term and carry on in the Rat World, cementing their rep among the community. Thats the way we do it. It works for us and the others as far as I can tell. I/We have never been asked for a kick back as far as I can recall.

CrewC

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Well, if what we are talking about here is a 10% fee for passing jobs between sound mixers because you are already booked, I don't like it.  I pass work on to people I trust, that I think will work out well with the job at hand and who I think might do the same for me if the situation was reversed.  This isn't a relationship that I think ought to be monetized--it is based on trust, "casting your bread on the waters", and building relationships.  I don't know how it is for you guys, but I couldn't get along w/o referrals from other mixers (who I always thanks), and I want producers who shoot in my town to be well taken care of if I can't make their dates--that's good for everybody.  Referring to someone who is paying you for the referral clouds the situation for me--and tempts one to recommend the person who pays you instead of the best person for the job, if they aren't the same person.  The assumption on the part of the producer you are recommending to is that you are giving them an honest referral of someone you feel can do the job as well as you, and they would probably take your referral with a grain of salt (at least) if they knew you were getting a cut.  Suffice to say I'm outside of ENG-world, where I think this kind of thing happens frequently, if more formally w/ crewing services.  For big jobs like features or long commercials the amount of money involved would be substantial, and I can't imagine anyone accepting such a deal.

Philip Perkins

This expresses my sentiment perfectly, Philip.  Thanks everybody for the thoughtful replies.  Rich, I was not disparaging Scott's approach.  It's his status on Facebook again, so that's why I mentioned it and brought it up for discussion.  He can whatever he wants to get more business and I'm sure he is more effective at it than I am.  I DO think there is a downside to (as Philip said) monetizing the relationship between sound mixers, however, and I was curious if others thought so as well.  I think if a regular client of mine found out I had taken a cut from someone I referred to them when I was unavailable for a job, they might question my motivation for doing it.  But maybe not.

For me it is all about making sure the client is taken care of and has one less thing to worry about.  If they know me and trust me, then their risk is minimized compared to a referral from a less trusted source (like, for instance, a crewing service).  Helping people out is good karma and a good referral helps everyone out.  Great posts, everyone.

PG

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I have seen and read Scott's post regarding the 10% offer on many different sites. I walked away feeling that Scott is feeling the crunch in business as others are feeling it in our business... I have referred many Audio jobs to mixers and received many Audio jobs from mixers and never have we made it so impersonal as to request a 10% finders fee either way. Now lunches have been bought, small gifts have been exchanged but this has been between friends whom have worked together and enjoy each others company.... I find the 10% fee offer a bit offensive but that is just me..... Scott is a smart person with many years of experience. I just think that his offer portrays a hunger for work, something which we all have..... - pshap

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What Crew said...

there are a couple professional crewing companies I'm glad to let take their cut; they find the gig, I get a decent net rate, and they do the paperwork; worth the % !!

Hi, Mike

There's a crewing service here that also serves as paymaster for a lot of cable programing and other shows that has a line in their startup package that requires you to call them for permission to work on jobs they didn't call you on and pay their fee for the work as well. It really pays to read all those papers a producer hands you. When I question this condition,  I'm told to cross it out and initial that cross-out. The company in question says it isn't a problem, but....

Best regards,

Jim

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that doesn't sound like any of the firms I deal with, and would not fit my definition of "reputable crewing service"; tha condition you describe sounds like an exclusive agency agreement, like actors have with their agents.

and you are completely correct, it is worth taking a moment to read all that "boilerplate" and "fine print" !!

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It boils down to using the same paperwork for their crewing business and the jobs where they only act as paymaster. I don't think the word "reputable" was anywhere in my post, BTW! I've stopped taking jobs from any client that uses this company, mostly because they manage to make a huge mistake every time they pay me.

Reputable crewing services are a whole 'nother item.

Best regards,

Jim

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I have given away lots of jobs and clients to folks I barely knew and that I have never seen again. Then there are a few good folks who I know a little who refer  me repeatedly and I try to return the favor as much as possible... even though its been slooooooooow.

NOW in the slimy video assist world I was forced to pay 10% of the rental rates I collected for my gear to many operators when it was their client, their job.

THIS RATE IS 50 % now !!!

 

It makes for a nasty atmosphere of hustlers hustling video labor and gear. There is a movement on the video YAHOO group to "out" the really cheap sound guys who sell sound gear, mixer, boom, video guy and gear for ridiculous package rates  for endless hours. The slime emanating from some music video productions has video assist certainly on a race to the bottom.

Often these are union  shoots.  There are some video folks who get big jobs and pay their operators in addition to the payroll just so they wont go independent and also to shut up about the quality of the gear. 

And then there are the camera assistants who make extra bucks by providing video gear to production companies... Ohh and while I am at it there are several DITS who record HD and a second video assist recorder. Everything is being practiced somewhere and labor has no organization protecting jobs or jurisdiction.  GAWD help us all. It's slimy out there most places.  wolf

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My feeling about referrals for work is that I treat it as a 'pay it forward' system, I'm happy to refer people that I trust will do a good job, and hope that they or someone else might return the effort in the future.

A mixer I used to work for went from commercials to features and set up a little side operation of providing the sound kits to a couple of mixers who he put in on jobs with long term clients - the benefit was that he kept the relationship with the client active. From the equipment money, I believe that he cut it 75%, 25%, so he covered his own costs and the mixer got some money from the deal.

I think from a point of principle I agree with this model more than others, the idea of someone taking the money that you are being paid for your skill and time doesn't sit well with me.

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