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Daniel Ignacio

Deity Connect.

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4 minutes ago, borjam said:

But playing with the RTS/CTS mechanisms, which is an entirely different matter, could be a problem in some environments.

 

Could be should be would be, my guess is that FCC doesn't sign of a chip/protocol if indeed it is fucking up a whole spectrum. 

 

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2 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

Could be should be would be, my guess is that FCC doesn't sign of a chip/protocol if indeed it is fucking up a whole spectrum. 

 

 

I don't think they will conduct a complete protocol verification. But there are people much more knowledgeable than myself in that regard here.

 

As far as I know they check for spurious emissions, power levels and spectral masks. But, again, I am not anything remotely resembling an expert on device certification, much iess on how it is done in USA ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, borjam said:

 

I don't think they will conduct a complete protocol verification. But there are people much more knowledgeable than myself in that regard here.

 

As far as I know they check for spurious emissions, power levels and spectral masks. But, again, I am not anything remotely resembling an expert on device certification, much iess on how it is done in USA ;)

 

 

They will and they have too by law, both for Europe and USA, otherwise they can not sell it, simply. Also, the chip inside the device is already tested and allowed by FCC (and in EU), with exactly the intended purpose of the Deity devices. I don't exactly understand what you try to prove/say here; the technology is not particularly new by any means. Also, disclosure, I worked for Deity at last IBC convention in Amsterdam.

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1 hour ago, Vincent R. said:

They will and they have too by law, both for Europe and USA, otherwise they can not sell it, simply. Also, the chip inside the device is already tested and allowed by FCC (and in EU), with exactly the intended purpose of the Deity devices. I don't exactly understand what you try to prove/say here; the technology is not particularly new by any means. Also, disclosure, I worked for Deity at last IBC convention in Amsterdam.

 

Not trying to smear anyone, sorry in case it sounds like that. But I can't avoid being very curious about the gory details. After all I am a radio geek as well and a reliable wireless microphone on the crowded 2.4 GHz band is a real achievement!

 

Let me try to explain. Andrew Jones said:
 

Quote

 

Wifi Networks and routers are beta signals. They take pulsing cues form outside RF factors/signals and accommodate them. I.E. our signal tells them when they can pulse. So we aren't worried about WiFi protocol, no matter how powerful it is.


 

 

So, it seems that the Deity system can generate those hints to tell WiFi nodes "you can transmit" or "wait". There are several mechanisms in play there. WiFi networks try to avoid collisions like the old Ethernet and in order to avoid the hidden node problem (read the chapter on the Aloha protocol on "Computer Networks" by A.S. Tanenbaum) it uses a mechanism called RTS/CTS. Especially before sending long packets that might tie the radio spectrum for a long time, an exchange warns that it will happen. Also, modern WiFi versions can detect signals from older versions. All of this helps to prevent collisions. 

 

I can imagine situations in which it might cause some issues even if negligible. Not suggesting that it could cause a wireless apocalypse or anything like that. As far as I know neither the FCC nor the European authorities perform a protocol level verification of WiFI equipment, for instance. Moreover, being a license free band shared by multiple technologies I think they mostly verify pure radio parameters like transmission power levels, out of band spurious radiation, maybe spectral masks and duty cycles in order to help, not guarantee, coexistence with other technologies, etc. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, borjam said:

So, it seems that the Deity system can generate those hints to tell WiFi nodes "you can transmit" or "wait".

First, there is de adaptive frequency hopping technology, to stay out of the way of any flavour of WiFi in the 2.4 ghz range in the first place. second, (all?) flavours of WiFi have the LBT (listen before talk) standard implemented, and not a continuously uninterruptible (back to back) data stream by the way. So in case of any "traffic jam" a Deity with a Wifi channel, it can finish the time slot, before moving over (remember; adaptive frequency hopping, is per time slot) to a different empty space in the spectrum. Also Wifi hardly ever is using the full spectrum of a channel (22mhz) due to overlap, thus leaving more gaps to "hop in.

 

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15 hours ago, borjam said:

Let me try to explain. Andrew Jones said:
 

 

So, it seems that the Deity system can generate those hints to tell WiFi nodes "you can transmit" or "wait". There are several mechanisms in play there. WiFi networks try to avoid collisions like the old Ethernet and in order to avoid the hidden node problem (read the chapter on the Aloha protocol on "Computer Networks" by A.S. Tanenbaum) it uses a mechanism called RTS/CTS. Especially before sending long packets that might tie the radio spectrum for a long time, an exchange warns that it will happen. Also, modern WiFi versions can detect signals from older versions. All of this helps to prevent collisions. 

 

So Vincent is spot on here. And as for the Deity Connect system sending out messages to hold WiFi back from pulsing, thats actually a system built into the WiFi Protocol, not built into ours.  

 

When I say- 

"Wifi Networks and routers are beta signals. They take pulsing cues form outside RF factors/signals and accommodate them. I.E. our signal tells them when they can pulse."

The cues WiFi networks take is the presence of another signal. They too are constantly scanning to make sure their own signal is safe. Thats why things like the analog systems that operate in 2.4Ghz are bad and are restricted to much lower legal power outputs is because they essentially knock down WiFi signals all together because the WiFi signal doesn't see any holes in the analog signal that it can send out its pulses at all. Thats not us. 

Our protocol can closely be thought of as how WiFi and Bluetooth co-habit. We are just doing it with more RF power (bluetooth devices must be under 10mw but most are well well below that https://fccid.io/SF4-H904 ) and wider bandwidth, bluetooth protocol maxes out a 1Mhz, our signal is 4Mhz.  

 

To put all this into perspective. In the matter of 1 second, our Deity Connect system will perform 665 frequency hops. Every 32 hops is 1 cycle (using all 9 channels at least once.)  Each channel is only lived on for 1.5ms till we hop to another channel. For 6ms other signals can send out data on a channel before we use it again for 1.5ms (if its a core channel, if its a trail channel they can use that channel for 51.2ms till we need it again. Wifi packets can be as short as 4ms. So there are holes in the WiFi system for us to slide between. Also WiFi isn't transmitting a 22Mhz wide 4ms pulse, its only using part of its 22Mhz at any one time also creating more holes in their system for other systems. WiFi is 22Mhz wide so when it does hit multi-Mhz size RF hits it can overcome it through its own retransmission on another part of its own channel. WiFi though isn't able to jump its 22Mhz channel up and dial the whole spectrum like we are. 

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Thank you ;)

 

My initial skepticism about using the 2.4 GHz band has been dilluted to almost homeopathic levels now.

 

And what I said about causing problems, I see I am most likely wrong. Maybe an obessive network administrator continuously running speed tests might notice some competition for the spectrum, but now I doubt it!

 

 

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"Thats why things like the analog systems that operate in 2.4Ghz are bad and are restricted to much lower legal power outputs is because they essentially knock down WiFi signals all together because the WiFi signal doesn't see any holes in the analog signal that it can send out its pulses at all. "

 

So will Deity Connect still work well in an environment with analogue 2.4ghz devices in operation?

 

OT and perhaps contentious but...

Products made in PRC seem to have more consistent pricing across our markets than products made in our own markets. Eg. Audio Ltd A10 RX: c.£2600 in UK; c.$2100 US. I get the taxation thing and the weak pound, but x 1.6!  Zoom recorder prices are x 1.3! I guess the Audio Ltd acquisition by SD mitigates and exploits the brexit related fall in value of the pound - great for manufacturers selling to an international market, 1 more punch in the face for having to buy in (UK) domestic market.

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16 minutes ago, daniel said:

Eg. Audio Ltd A10 RX: c.£2600 in UK; c.$2100 US. I get the taxation thing and the weak pound, but x 1.6! 

 

the A10 RX currently sells for 2145GBP (at CVP and pinknoise), that's 2830USD, and 2190USD (at trew), so that's 1.3x unless I'm missing something.

noizeboys has it for 2380EUR (= 2755USD), so it seems to be more an USA vs Europe thing rather then a UK specific issue.

 

still a pity about the brexit.

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10 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

 

the A10 RX currently sells for 2145GBP (at CVP and pinknoise), that's 2830USD, and 2190USD (at trew), so that's 1.3x unless I'm missing something.

noizeboys has it for 2380EUR (= 2755USD), so it seems to be more an USA vs Europe thing rather then a UK specific issue.

 

still a pity about the brexit.

 

You must be VAT registered (and sales TAX in US is not the same :-). A10 RX = 2195usd = 1660gbp = less than Wisycom MPR52 (1887gbp inc VAT in UK). I get the feeling dealers here rinse the small guys to give discounts to the big guys - I'm probably totally wrong though. Still, if the only thing about any of this to significantly change is new products from PRC are good enough to do the job, then they wont just get my money they will get a lot of others money too. 

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2 hours ago, daniel said:

 

You must be VAT registered (and sales TAX in US is not the same :-). A10 RX = 2195usd = 1660gbp = less than Wisycom MPR52 (1887gbp inc VAT in UK). I get the feeling dealers here rinse the small guys to give discounts to the big guys - I'm probably totally wrong though. 

 

Audio doesn't get a single penny from that VAT, so they get exactly the same money from VAT registered customer vs one which isn't, and so are the dealers.

It's really a government thing, if you fly over to the States and buy an A10 you'll pay the same VAT (plus tolls) out of your pocket and end up with a very similar price (you can get the VAT back if you are VAT registered though). The small price difference that remains is probably because of the stronger competition of lectro and zax in the USA.

 

this went rather off topic though, sorry for that.

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3 hours ago, daniel said:

So will Deity Connect still work well in an environment with analogue 2.4ghz devices in operation?

 

Yes; because it has the adaptive frequency hopping. It sees that the analoque/wifi/teradeck/whatever device is occupying a frequency/channel and hops around it. Doesn't matter what flavour or protocol.

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