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2 hours ago, Ed Denton said:

Bouke, you may not agree

Ed, you may not have understood who I am and what my natural tone is, nor my relation with Vincent.
Let him complain if my words seem inappropriate, we both don't need you in this unless you have something interesting to say about the subject.

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agreed, but unfortunately hard times for the professional sound mixer who has to feed a family since more and more people will buy a cheap mic, cheap wireless, cheap recorder etc and budgets for sound

The Go is completely useless, , as it starts dropping out within a few feet the minute you turn around and lose line of sight.

I would like to have seen a range test that modeled real conditions, i.e., the transmitters mounted at the waist, behind the person. That would have given a better comparison of body absorption and sh

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7 hours ago, Bouke said:

with all respect, fuck you. No way (with any proxy sound quality) that the 2009 Plural Eyes could have done this 'effortlessly'.

I don't claim it did not work, but I do claim it will have taken hours of (rendering) work, where a TC match would have been instant, and an LTC match at least 100 times faster.

It did it effortlessly. And the "renders" where relatively quick; it was a documentary series and it just took a couple of minutes (maybe 15? 30?) per day to do it, every day after shooting, so indeed effortlessly in the way of; transfer files to machine, start software, drag the files and PRESS A BUTTON, grab a drink and when you come back the dailies are synced. I know it so well because I was setting up the workflow with the editor, since at the winter of 2009/2010 this was all relatively new. The doc series was running for like 10 episodes, 2 series, you do the math. This was 2009 indeed, in the time that timecode boxes where big and heavy, especially for DSLR cameras.

So after this initial big project, we had several more of them. The last time I did a "big" documentary with plural eyes was 2014; same story, last day at location I sat down with the producer (at the swimming pool, a travel day, the director had to start offline editing herself immediately for a quick turnaround), showed him how pluraleyes worked, and we found out it worked on all the 15 days, except the one morning that the audio Jack was fallen out of the camera. It got some files of synced up with the internal mic, but not all. Hence, my initial post that the 1 channel hop to camera is essential to make this work effortlessly, then you get a 100% succes rate.

Lately it is pretty rare, since TC boxes are smaller and cheaper (I was the first beta tester of tentacle sync back in 2014, right after the last big doc I did with plural eyes..), but from time to time some people still want it for some reason, and it works, but yeah me too advice against it.

 

You can say fuck you all day to me, no hurt feelings, just I guess it's a bit, well, exposing some personal issues I guess you have with the matter of subject... I know some editors get quite frustrated with the pluraleyes workflow, and all I can say is that if the "set people" are keen on handeling the scratch/hop sound properly and disciplined, it can work as advertised. Also most editors are freaking out if things are off from their usual workflow, causing them to think outside of their natural/standard way of doing things. Luckily I work with amazing editors who don't take a sweat over a change of habit, and personally I like to think along for a project and tinker about getting things done and to go smoothly for every department.

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3 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

just took a couple of minutes (maybe 15? 30?)

 

This I call 'effort'. In your case all params where perfect, but that is not always the case, and then it's more like 4 hours for a shooting day.
Mind you, on 'normal' broadcast jobs, a day of shooting 'should' be edited in half a day, so more than a few minutes of sycning is highly irritating.

(Let alone you did not have subclips after Plural Eyes, but a sequence. LTC and Avid (or my software) would have done this faster AND with creating (sub) clips.)

 

And I don't eat the TC boxes being big. If you could get production audio to the cam, you could get TC to the cam. Same transmitters / wires.

 

And you bet you are right that I have personal issues with Plural Eyes. (I know the developer, we have had extensive conversations.)

It just does not work well in a lot of cases, but people seem to rely on it.

Then I'm the one who has the problems and explaining to do that even the 'try really hard' method came up with close to nothing after 400 euro's of studio time. I can't sell that. Period.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:


Vincent was referring to 2009, I guess back then a G2 was cheaper to rent than a timecode box? (or at the very least,  less bulky/heavy. Tentacles hadn't came out yet)

In 2009 the BBC and most other networks would never accept a documentary shot on a DSLR, granted I am not aware if they have changed that, but as I said I have never shot a  broadcast doc on a DSLR.

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1 hour ago, Bouke said:

 

This I call 'effort'. In your case all params where perfect, but that is not always the case, and then it's more like 4 hours for a shooting day

Don't know what you mean with 4 hours; if memory services me right the editor came in in the morning, started to sync, grabbed some coffee and have the morning routine chit chat, came back 15/30 after that and he went on with work.

 

1 hour ago, Bouke said:

And I don't eat the TC boxes being big. If you could get production audio to the cam, you could get TC to the cam. Same transmitters / wires.

Yup, it's personal. Yet who cares what the editor/sound guy thinks, the DP is the king.

 

1 hour ago, Bouke said:

Mind you, on 'normal' broadcast jobs, a day of shooting 'should' be edited in half a day, so more than a few minutes of sycning is highly irritating

When I started out in the bizzz we had to capture 40 minute betacam tapes to media 100 in real time. Now that was a pain.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bouke said:

Then I'm the one who has the problems and explaining to do that even the 'try really hard' method came up with close to nothing after 400 euro's of studio time. I can't sell that. Period.

Yup, indeed if one doesn't know what he is doing, shit happens down the chain. The workflows I mentioned before where obviously tested before we started the projects, because time indeed is money. The equivalent in a TC workflow would be that one doesn't know how to set up TC, causing the same enjoying problems in post.

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In the video demo that Andrew did at Gotham Sound https://youtu.be/rc4HCo6gPjE at around the 3.02 minute mark he mentions that they are actually stereo transmitters and that they can be used as a camera hop or audio/timecode signal. Outside of this brief mention I haven't seen anything more in any of the demonstrations or literature about this and how it works with the Duo receiver. Can it operate in a diversity mode like the Lectro SRB "ratio mode"? So if you have one transmitter transmitting in stereo will the Duo receiver automatically switch to picking up the stereo signal and feed each side of the stereo signal out of the two outputs (in a camera hop kind of configuration)? I'm looking forward to checking them out when they are available in Australia. I spoke to the Australian distributor today and apparently he received a shipment today so I'll finally be able to get my hands on a model. Looking forward to putting it through its paces.

 

 

 

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The gist of the responses I got seem to indicate that I will have timecode (or “timestamp”) issues that will need to be worked around. I think I need to see a solid workaround before I would commit to the kit. 

I was also excited to use a transmitter above 50mw without needing an FCC license, but from the tests I’ve seen it appears the output is not really comparable to an analog signal of the same power.

The Connect has been advertised as a professional system for the past year or so, but I haven’t seen it tested by anyone on a broadcast or studio set. Literally all I’ve seen is youtubers running it straight into camera.

Those are my big concerns right now. 

 

The things that are keeping me interested are the bi-directional communication and the adaptive frequency hopping. I think those features give the Connect a chance of outperforming the g4. 

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15 minutes ago, mattmattsn said:

The Connect has been advertised as a professional system for the past year or so, but I haven’t seen it tested by anyone on a broadcast or studio set. Literally all I’ve seen is youtubers running it straight into camera.

 

Remember that while it was announced a while ago, Deity said it wouldn't be released for sale until this spring. Depending on the dealer, it looks like systems are only now available, or are still listed as coming soon.

 

So the lack of authoritative reviews is understandable. Hopefully we'll see some real-world testing within the next month.

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1 hour ago, mattmattsn said:

(or “timestamp”)

Thank you for paying attention to my class.

 

1 hour ago, mattmattsn said:

I will have timecode (or “timestamp”) issues

As stated, if you have a recorder that is 'smart', you won't.

 

1 hour ago, mattmattsn said:

I need to see a solid workaround

My (shameless promoted) BWF toolbox WILL be a solid workaround if your recorder is not so smart.

More important, I would be afraid of timing issues if you can't delay other channels that end up in the mix. The half frame delay is not that big of an issue if everything is delayed the same way.

 

 

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Can anyone explain how one might use a deity connect in a 633 bag alongside a lectro SRB, for 4 wireless lavs, without the 19ms latency creating weirdness in the mix? Is It possible for the lectro and deity system to work nicely together with timecode sync? It's all a little confusing to me

 

Daniel

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1 hour ago, DanielAgustin said:

Can anyone explain how one might use a deity connect in a 633 bag alongside a lectro SRB, for 4 wireless lavs, without the 19ms latency creating weirdness in the mix? Is It possible for the lectro and deity system to work nicely together with timecode sync? It's all a little confusing to me

 

Daniel

You dial in the delay on the other channels. So per example; your hardwire boom mic you dial back 19ms, your lectro you dial back 14, since the Lectros already have a 5ms (?) delay of its own. And like Bouke says, The half frame delay this all causing is not that big of an issue. if everything is delayed the same way. A word of caution; We did a quick test with the Connect in combo with an SRc last weekend, and the SRc was subject of interference of the Connect, so we gave it a bit of distance in the bag, like 4 inches, and that solved it. 

 

3 hours ago, mattmattsn said:

The gist of the responses I got seem to indicate that I will have timecode (or “timestamp”) issues that will need to be worked around. I think I need to see a solid workaround before I would commit to the kit. 

I was also excited to use a transmitter above 50mw without needing an FCC license, but from the tests I’ve seen it appears the output is not really comparable to an analog signal of the same power.

The Connect has been advertised as a professional system for the past year or so, but I haven’t seen it tested by anyone on a broadcast or studio set. Literally all I’ve seen is youtubers running it straight into camera.

Those are my big concerns right now. 

 

The things that are keeping me interested are the bi-directional communication and the adaptive frequency hopping. I think those features give the Connect a chance of outperforming the g4. 

Indeed the 100 mw for 2.4 ghz you can not compare with 100 mw on our "conventional" UHF. We did a walking test last weekend see video, in my crowded domestic neighbourhood i would say 50 meters is a fair range to give these thingies, all things considered. In house we did a test, not in the video, and we had drop outs; It turned out I put the TX on my smartphone, connected to wifi... When I did a test without the phone, I could walk all around my house, all rooms, with thick concrete walls and no dropout. 
I will test further, both audio quality and range, also try to get my hands on some high gain antennae. The RX antennae are 3 db now, since it is 2.4 ghz a 9db antenna is not that much bigger (in the bag. For cart use the sky is the limit... Loads of big/far range antennae out there for low cost, to improve range.  
 

 

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Bouke, I have an f8, which has adjustable input delay. It does not have a timecode offset feature like I hear the 633 has. The general consensus I’ve heard agrees with you that half a frame delay is not that big of an issue. I just want to be prepared in case someone in post finds it to be a bigger issue. 

 

Jim, I’m keeping my eyes on all of Deity’s social media. Maybe sound pros are just not as enthusiastic about new, untested technology as youtubers are. 

 

I might end up being my own guinea pig. Like I said, I think these have a chance of outperforming my G3’s. And that’s all they really need to do, because if I need more range or reliability I’m probably renting anyway. That’s just where I’m at right now. 

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6 minutes ago, mattmattsn said:

Maybe sound pros are just not as enthusiastic about new, untested technology as youtubers are. 

 

I might end up being my own guinea pig. Like I said, I think these have a chance of outperforming my G3’s. And that’s all they really need to do, because if I need more range or reliability I’m probably renting anyway. That’s just where I’m at right now

I guess you missed my post? As it answers about 2/3 of your questions and you can see hear a comparison with a modded G3.

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43 minutes ago, Vincent R. said:

You dial in the delay on the other channels. So per example; your hardwire boom mic you dial back 19ms, your lectro you dial back 14, since the Lectros already have a 5ms (?) delay of its own. And like Bouke says, The half frame delay this all causing is not that big of an issue. if everything is delayed the same way. A word of caution; We did a quick test with the Connect in combo with an SRc last weekend, and the SRc was subject of interference of the Connect, so we gave it a bit of distance in the bag, like 4 inches, and that solved it. 

 

Thank you Sir! ill give that a shot!

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13 hours ago, Ed Denton said:

In the video demo that Andrew did at Gotham Sound https://youtu.be/rc4HCo6gPjE at around the 3.02 minute mark he mentions that they are actually stereo transmitters and that they can be used as a camera hop or audio/timecode signal. Outside of this brief mention I haven't seen anything more in any of the demonstrations or literature about this and how it works with the Duo receiver.

 

 

 

Good catch, haven't seen that mentioned anywhere else either.  If it truly could beam stereo audio with timecode for less than $700, I'd buy a set in a heartbeat for a camera hop but something tells me this is not the case.

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1 hour ago, Vincent R. said:

You dial in the delay on the other channels. So per example; your hardwire boom mic you dial back 19ms, your lectro you dial back 14, since the Lectros already have a 5ms (?) delay of its own. And like Bouke says, The half frame delay this all causing is not that big of an issue. if everything is delayed the same way. A word of caution; We did a quick test with the Connect in combo with an SRc last weekend, and the SRc was subject of interference of the Connect, so we gave it a bit of distance in the bag, like 4 inches, and that solved it. 

 

Indeed the 100 mw for 2.4 ghz you can not compare with 100 mw on our "conventional" UHF. We did a walking test last weekend see video, in my crowded domestic neighbourhood i would say 50 meters is a fair range to give these thingies, all things considered. In house we did a test, not in the video, and we had drop outs; It turned out I put the TX on my smartphone, connected to wifi... When I did a test without the phone, I could walk all around my house, all rooms, with thick concrete walls and no dropout. 
I will test further, both audio quality and range, also try to get my hands on some high gain antennae. The RX antennae are 3 db now, since it is 2.4 ghz a 9db antenna is not that much bigger (in the bag. For cart use the sky is the limit... Loads of big/far range antennae out there for low cost, to improve range.  
 

 

Hi Vincent,

Any chance you get hold of enough units to do a density test?

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11 hours ago, Jim Feeley said:

 

Remember that while it was announced a while ago, Deity said it wouldn't be released for sale until this spring. Depending on the dealer, it looks like systems are only now available, or are still listed as coming soon.

 

So the lack of authoritative reviews is understandable. Hopefully we'll see some real-world testing within the next month.


Yes, the first sales of it was only made a couple of weeks ago. And not everywhere has it in stock just yet. 

 

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9 hours ago, daniel said:

Hi Vincent,

Any chance you get hold of enough units to do a density test?

You mean more than 1 RX next to each other? Not anytime soon, maybe middle/end of May.

 

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, the first sales of it was only made a couple of weeks ago. And not everywhere has it in stock just yet. 

 

Yes they and they sold the first batches very quickly!

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On 4/30/2019 at 3:46 PM, codyman said:

Good catch, haven't seen that mentioned anywhere else either.  If it truly could beam stereo audio with timecode for less than $700, I'd buy a set in a heartbeat for a camera hop but something tells me this is not the case.

Hey Codyman, it's 100% the case. The reason why you see me talking about it on the Gotham video and no one else's video is the demographic audience that Gotham speaks to is very different than most interviews I do with the press. I've attached the stereo pinout. We are hoping to have V2 firmware out this summer that will enable you to transmit to multiple receivers so that they really can be a more effective camera hop.

Camera Hop Pinout.png

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3 hours ago, Andrew From Deity said:

Hey Codyman, it's 100% the case. The reason why you see me talking about it on the Gotham video and no one else's video is the demographic audience that Gotham speaks to is very different than most interviews I do with the press. I've attached the stereo pinout. We are hoping to have V2 firmware out this summer that will enable you to transmit to multiple receivers so that they really can be a more effective camera hop.

Camera Hop Pinout.png

All of this looks great and thanks for clarifying it.  You should definitely throw this diagram up on the website as I'm sure others will be highly interested in this functionality.

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So I got mine in today but I might be sending it right back... It turns out the original f8 does not have shielding that can deal with the RFI the Connect receiver puts out. If they are in the same bag (or within about a foot of each other in general) there is a loud buzz in the f8’s preamps. I’ve never had any interference from sennheiser wireless or from my plug on rodelink (which granted is a much much lower wattage). I messaged Deity and the solution they offered was to put a big copper plate covered in soft side Velcro sticking up out of my bag between the recorder and the receiver. Not super attractive. I really really wish I would have seen some mention somewhere of this issue, especially since it has apparently been known for some time. I probably wouldn’t have bought it if I’d known that my only choices for running it are either to get a new recorder or build my own rf shielding contraption. Who knows what other devices will have interference issues. 

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5 hours ago, mattmattsn said:

So I got mine in today but I might be sending it right back... It turns out the original f8 does not have shielding that can deal with the RFI the Connect receiver puts out. If they are in the same bag (or within about a foot of each other in general) there is a loud buzz in the f8’s preamps. I’ve never had any interference from sennheiser wireless or from my plug on rodelink (which granted is a much much lower wattage). I messaged Deity and the solution they offered was to put a big copper plate covered in soft side Velcro sticking up out of my bag between the recorder and the receiver. Not super attractive. I really really wish I would have seen some mention somewhere of this issue, especially since it has apparently been known for some time. I probably wouldn’t have bought it if I’d known that my only choices for running it are either to get a new recorder or build my own rf shielding contraption. Who knows what other devices will have interference issues. 

Was it on the record tracks or getting into the unbalanced HP cable (still not good)?

It's amazing how much youtube content is created purporting to be a product test/review yet so few relate to a real world context. Eg. in a bag with other gear and more than 1 or 2 channels. Hard to see where these online tests/reviews would come from either - end users don't have the budgets and kit to do much more than test a single unit with their own gear and the vendors don;t want to damage their relationships with the suppliers/manufacturers. The established wireless manufacturers are used to selling products to a pro market and have been mostly diligent in their testing (if understandably not publishing the results)

I would be interested in developing a real world, multi channel test for RMs - I think it needs to involve the manufacturers stated maximum channel count and 2 recorders, in real world sound bags (and probably some vendor's cooperation unless they're going to do the test) - enough of the single channel range tests into a DSLR.  <soz - rant over>

So is this a fail? An un shielded Zoom recorder fail? Or Deity uncontrolled RF spill fail? Or both? Does the copper plate work (praps an influencer can demonstrate)? Is this an acceptable work around given the savings made using these cheaper products?

 

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It is an issue with the earlier units of the F8 indeed; as acknowledged by Zoom, they changed some RF shielding design in the later production runs, as well as with the F8n. I can say from my (still limited, not tested throughout due of lack of time..) experience that the later Zoom 8s don't have this issue. Other recorders I or others tested/are using with success; Mixpre 10T, SD 633, Sonosax SX R4+, lower cost Zoom devices, Zaxcom Nomad. Like I mentioned before, we had interference on the Lectrosonics SRc receiver when in close proximity, but in the same bag there was a Sennheiser G3 RX and that one didn't had any problems. 

 

Extra note; the fact there is "RF spill" or how you wanna call it, is the fact there are 2 transmitters in the receiver as well, for the bi-directional functionality. As with all systems, that might explain the problem with the Lectro unit, since it is a known fact that TX and RX close to each other is not a wise idea. 

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I don’t think I can trust it. Every device I put in (or near) my bag from then on would have to be tested to ensure it has enough shielding in the right places and won’t pick up interference. I asked someone with a mixpre 6 and he said he got some noise too. It’s definitely on the record tracks, not just the headphone amp. I was pretty annoyed that there were compatibility issues known to the manufacturer but they chose to keep quiet about it and let us find out for ourselves. Sourcing and making my own copper plate shield is not gonna cut it for me. I call it a fail. 

 

Vincent, go back and listen to each track on each recorder on solo with the input gain maxed. Some of my tracks the interference was very faint, but it was on all of them. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found some on other devices. 

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