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PD-6 users, please advise.


MT Groove

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Oh yeah, the fact that Fostex locks up the internal HDD is the other issue i have. The 606 allows FW access to the internal HDD, I WISH they would open that for the PD-6. It is kind of a mess because the little discs are not slot-drive friendly. I end up backing up all the discs to my laptop via firewire (time consuming) and burning them full sized DVDs, or handing off a flash drive to the on-site editor. To be honest, i'm not sure anyone ever even opens those little DVD-RAM discs. Maybe that's ok, but if people maintain adequate backups it doesn't seem imperative anymore.

Like i said, i really like the PD-6, but there are some little nuisances. I realize the PD-6 can record incredibly large audio files, and when the deck was originally built there was no such thing as flash memory in capacities we would want.

-johnpaul

If you want to mirror to a DVD-RAM and walk down the street while recording 6 tracks of audio, the PD-6 is the only one that can do it.  It is the limitation of the media stability that has everything ham- strung.  The buffering needed would be too intense to accomplish this with full size dvd-rams. 

PD-6 has a feature called auto new partition that allows the machine to record(to HD only) across partions, without losing a sample.  This combined with the possibility of mounting the Hard drive to a PC would greatly improve functionality. 

Also, the added USB memory function on the PD-606 has been very helpful and has opened up the the option to deliver flash memory as a final product.  Of course that is PD-606 and not very helpful to PD-6 users. 

John.

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It is, has been and will continue to be a stepped process concerning what manufacturer, what recorder does what and when...  That is progress....   Fostex is not any more or less susceptible to this progressive phenomenon.  Heck, the 788T has an updated version already.....  even though it is a replaceable drive, are you going to bash the old one for not moving fast enough with new features?

Why is it a Fatal problem if I record to 4.7 GB discs and ALWAYS have....  So I use an EX-12,  always have.... Never been fatal for me...  What's up with that?

This stepped progress is the new(er) norm in our industry....  To say that Fostex "saw the light" is an unfair and pointed un-necessary jab. It is simply progress...  We all know how you feel Jeff.  Excuse me,  Mr. Deva!

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If you want to mirror to a DVD-RAM and walk down the street while recording 6 tracks of audio, the PD-6 is the only one that can do it.  It is the limitation of the media stability that has everything ham- strung.  The buffering needed would be too intense to accomplish this with full size dvd-rams.

John.

This is just not the case. There are limitations to the optical media and the read-write routines required, this is true of ALL machines that utilize optical media. The problem with the Fostex, originally, was that was the ONLY media it used to record to. Once they decided to use the hard drive as the primary method of recording (as the Deva has always done) mirroring to an optical disc should not be a problem providing the write routines to the optical media are worked out properly. The statement: "The buffering needed would be too intense to accomplish this with full size dvd-rams" is sort of right, particularly for the Fostex, but it does not apply to the Deva. The Deva uses a system of infinite buffer which insures that data is not written to the DVD-RAM disc unless it can be reliably written --- this provides for your scenario of "walking down the street" while recording 6 tracks to be totally reliable and has nothing to do with full size or mini size media.

-  Jeff Wexler

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This is just not the case. There are limitations to the optical media and the read-write routines required, this is true of ALL machines that utilize optical media. The problem with the Fostex, originally, was that was the ONLY media it used to record to. Once they decided to use the hard drive as the primary method of recording (as the Deva has always done) mirroring to an optical disc should not be a problem providing the write routines to the optical media are worked out properly. The statement: "The buffering needed would be too intense to accomplish this with full size dvd-rams" is sort of right, particularly for the Fostex, but it does not apply to the Deva. The Deva uses a system of infinite buffer which insures that data is not written to the DVD-RAM disc unless it can be reliably written --- this provides for your scenario of "walking down the street" while recording 6 tracks to be totally reliable and has nothing to do with full size or mini size media.

-  Jeff Wexler

Hi jeff, i was not aware of the infinite buffer with DEVA, i be curious to know how well that works. 

The addition of the hard disc to the PD-6 was a smart move and they added that pretty quickly after the recorder hit the market and i think they did it for free.  Your right, the initial perspective focused on using the optical media as the primary recording method but that perspective changed fairly fast after the hard drive was installed.  Obviously, the capability was built in to the initial design already and it should have been there from the start.  None of these recorders are as futureproof as we'd want them to be. I look forward to never burning a CD or a DVD on set ever again.  I hate it when i am working on a commercial and every department is wrapped before i get my discs out. 

I think we provided the original poster MT some good info to help him with his project with his PD-6.

See you at NAB- looking forward to it.

John Gooch

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"Hi jeff, i was not aware of the infinite buffer with DEVA, i be curious to know how well that works."

It has worked pretty well and I have mirrored to the DVD in some pretty rough conditions. High speed insert car work in Manhattan on "Vanilla Sky" I would mirror on the way back to number 1 which was still very fast and very bumpy --- never had a bad disc.

"The addition of the hard disc to the PD-6 was a smart move and they added that pretty quickly after the recorder hit the market and i think they did it for free."

Yes, it was added very soon after its introduction. I don't know why it wasn't there from the start. I do have some theories but that's another discussion.

"Your right, the initial perspective focused on using the optical media as the primary recording method but that perspective changed fairly fast after the hard drive was installed."

You have hit it on the head: the overriding concept of having the Fostex machine provide the "one media" approach we had used for 30 years with the Nagra (1/4" tape) was a flawed concept when attempting to use optical media in a production recorder. I would say "that perspective changed fairly fast"  when it was obvious that the sole 8 cm DVD was not the way to go.

"I look forward to never burning a CD or a DVD on set ever again.  I hate it when i am working on a commercial and every department is wrapped before i get my discs out."

I agree with you completely. I would love to see everything go solid state where the only issue would be the rate of file transfer amongst the various media (certainly faster than writing to an optical disc). 

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I look forward to never burning a CD or a DVD on set ever again.  I hate it when i am working on a commercial and every department is wrapped before i get my discs out. 

How are you turning in your files? The last feature i did had the editor on site. I would back up the files from my PD-6 to my laptop, then pass them onto the editor via a little bus powered USB HDD. Before this, i would often burn a DVD with the day's recordings. That's what production wanted, and i know it was some tradition of making sure they acquire *something* from each department every day or the PR was not "right".

I only know of one production that actually popped the DVD-RAM discs open, and that was because they lost my DVD of files for that day. They ended up losing DVD-RAM discs too, which is encouragement to do the backups.

It makes me wonder if they ever lose reels of film.

-johnpaul

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How are you turning in your files? The last feature i did had the editor on site. I would back up the files from my PD-6 to my laptop, then pass them onto the editor via a little bus powered USB HDD. Before this, i would often burn a DVD with the day's recordings. That's what production wanted, and i know it was some tradition of making sure they acquire *something* from each department every day or the PR was not "right".

I only know of one production that actually popped the DVD-RAM discs open, and that was because they lost my DVD of files for that day. They ended up losing DVD-RAM discs too, which is encouragement to do the backups.

It makes me wonder if they ever lose reels of film.

-johnpaul

John Paul,

I have sent many mini DVD-RAMs to post production without any hassle at all.  Initially it was a problem and it required some handholding, but now that DAT is dead, nobody blinks an eye.  Some don't want DVD-RAM at all, but that really is their problem for being stuck in stone age.  I have a Lacie firewire DVD-RAM drive i've loaned to production in the past if they really can not work it out.  DVD-RAM is the most reliable choice for us to use as an optical medium.  That is my opinion, i don't think many would disagree. 

john

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I have decided to decode all of my recordings, and send a mountain of tablets with 1's and 0's carved in them.  I expect this will yield me TONS of extra cash in overtime, and I can make profit on the sale of all the tablets.  Now, to somehow keep the tablets in the right order.  I think numbers I thru MMCLIV will get me through until the film break at lunch.

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" a mountain of tablets with 1's and 0's carved in them.  I expect this will yield me TONS of extra cash in overtime, and I can make profit on the sale of all the tablets.  Now, to somehow keep the tablets in the right order.  I think numbers I thru MMCLIV will get me through until the film break at lunch. "

they should be numbered in Binary;  and you'll want a CCM% markup on the tablets, plus the styli you'll be using!

" the initial perspective focused on using the optical media as the primary recording method but that perspective changed fairly fast after the hard drive was installed.  Obviously, the capability was built in to the initial design already and it should have been there from the start. "

JW, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this parallel the DEVA, where 'the initial perspective focused on using the hard drives as the primary, in fact only media...' ??

and...

" The addition of the hard disc to the PD-6 was a smart move and they added that pretty quickly after the recorder hit the market and i think they did it for free. "

and in Zaxcom's case: ' the addition of the DVD-RAM was a smart move they made pretty quickly after the Deva recorder hit the market and I think they did it for free'

" I look forward to never burning a CD or a DVD on set ever again.  "

I have been predicting that soon our files will be transferred directly to post from the set...

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" I look forward to never burning a CD or a DVD on set ever again.  "

I have been predicting that soon our files will be transferred directly to post from the set...

That what i effectively did on my last feature. Editor was on set. I put the files on a little HDD and he was syncing them on the spot. It was an effects heavy horror film (no digital effects). Besides the obvious advantage to the editor being there for any film, they were able to make sure things visually worked on camera, and matched between prosthetics and real people. We were able to watch rough assemblies of scenes not long after shooting them.

Actually, now that i think about it, they never even collected the DVD-RAM discs from me. I'm sure at some point they will drop them in a time capsule or something, but the film is fast approaching a picture lock (is that the term?). We finished filming in late February, and watched the first rough assembly less than a week after filming was completed. There was something rewarding that on the last day after wrap the crew got to sit down and watch a handful of scenes that were already put together, as well as a gag reel.

This is kind of off topic of the PD-6, but it is a sign of things to come with digital filmmaking. I know they would have loved to shoot the project on actual film, but you would never get this kind of turnaround with film. As far as the PD-6 is concerned, it worked flawlessly. The editor was using the latest version of Final Cut and syncing tracks with no problem. We didn't have a TC lock device on camera, so he did it by the slate numbers or clap... or just eyeballed it. He's pretty good like that.

It is kind of interesting that with the RED you don't have camera tapes like you do with a cinealta or something. The CF cards are immediately backed up to multiple external HDDs, and then formatted. Next to the RED, the PD-6's discs seem a little out of place i guess. I'm sure there will be a situation where an editor accidentally squashes the tracks down to one or two tracks and your backups, or the original discs, will save the day.

anyhooo, enjoy the PD-6.

-johnpaul

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That what i effectively did on my last feature. Editor was on set. I put the files on a little HDD and he was syncing them on the spot. It was an effects heavy horror film (no digital effects). Besides the obvious advantage to the editor being there for any film, they were able to make sure things visually worked on camera, and matched between prosthetics and real people. We were able to watch rough assemblies of scenes not long after shooting them.

Actually, now that i think about it, they never even collected the DVD-RAM discs from me. I'm sure at some point they will drop them in a time capsule or something, but the film is fast approaching a picture lock (is that the term?). We finished filming in late February, and watched the first rough assembly less than a week after filming was completed. There was something rewarding that on the last day after wrap the crew got to sit down and watch a handful of scenes that were already put together, as well as a gag reel.

This is kind of off topic of the PD-6, but it is a sign of things to come with digital filmmaking. I know they would have loved to shoot the project on actual film, but you would never get this kind of turnaround with film. As far as the PD-6 is concerned, it worked flawlessly. The editor was using the latest version of Final Cut and syncing tracks with no problem. We didn't have a TC lock device on camera, so he did it by the slate numbers or clap... or just eyeballed it. He's pretty good like that.

It is kind of interesting that with the RED you don't have camera tapes like you do with a cinealta or something. The CF cards are immediately backed up to multiple external HDDs, and then formatted. Next to the RED, the PD-6's discs seem a little out of place i guess. I'm sure there will be a situation where an editor accidentally squashes the tracks down to one or two tracks and your backups, or the original discs, will save the day.

anyhooo, enjoy the PD-6.

-johnpaul

This has become my world anymore--everyone wants my files xferred to a drive on set, usually by an editor or data manager.  At first I didn't like it and made a DVD anyhow, but now don't do this unless they ask for it.  Even on longer film jobs with traditional telecine which required daily DVDs, at the end of the job we transferred all the files to a HD for everyone in editorial so they never had to mess with the DVDs ever.  So: easier, with no transfer (done by me), but no media markup/sale either.

Philip Perkins

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I guess I'm slipping on my "clarity" these days...

I meant that even beyond physically handing off HDD's to post,(that is happening fairly frequently already) that after we record them, our files would be accessed from our machines and dowloaded into servers, etc. at the post facility, be it next door, or far off across the globe; we would keep the files we created only as "backup", for possible retransmission if ever needed...

" We finished filming in late February, and watched the first rough assembly less than a week after filming was completed.  " while it may be unusual for this to be screened for the crew, it is not unusual for there to be a first rough cut very soon after wrap, as the editor(s) usually has been working on the footage since the 2nd day of production, cutting each scene as soon as it is shot..

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Regardless of how you deliver your sound, I ALWAYS keep a copy of the files until the project is released!  You can buy a TB drive for $100 to keep at home.  Seems really silly to not have them, even though it's not your responsibility to babysit the media/files once they have been handed/transfered away.

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Regardless of how you deliver your sound, I ALWAYS keep a copy of the files until the project is released!  You can buy a TB drive for $100 to keep at home.  Seems really silly to not have them, even though it's not your responsibility to babysit the media/files once they have been handed/transfered away.

I agree with this 100%....  It's only temporary, why not....

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I agree with this 100%....  It's only temporary, why not....

Absolutely keep copies. It might not be your responsibility to archive it, but it's so easy + cheap to do. It's also worth keeping if you ever want to go back for personal reference on a specific mic's performance or whatever.

I never looked to get an electronic sound report. I get the carbon copy ones from Gotham and put in info like what mic is being used, who it is wired to etc. There is also no place to enter some sort of info about issues on certain takes on certain tracks. Might be pointless, but I like to take notes. I have heard from editors that they are at least amused by my notes. Things you can't do with the PD-6.

-johnpaul

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