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Sound Devices: Which recorder to buy for recording Sound Effects in 2018


spekter

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Hi everyone,

 

I'm looking for a recorder mainly for recording various sound effects; no recording of live gigs/ music, interviews, dialogue etc.

I'm particularly interested in the available Sound Devices recorders but I'm wondering if the newer models of the MixPre series keep up with older, more expensive models of the 7 and 6 series regarding sound quality (for what I want to do with them).

 

So if I want the best preamps/ sound quality for recording sound effects, which one is the best option (I would like to see which one of those options would give me the best sound first, and only then start looking at the different features of those recorders)?

 

- Buy a used 702 for roughly the price of a new Mixpre 6

- Buy a used 744t for a bit less than the price of a new Mixpre 10t (about 200 EUR less)

- Buy a used 633 for a bit more than a new Mixpre 6 (about 400 EUR more)

- Buy a Mixpre 6

 

Looking at the overall features, the Mixpre 6 wins for me, since more inputs are always nice, and so is the option for ambisonic recording as well as smaller size/ less weight.

However, even though some statemens I've come across by Sound Devices officials seem to suggest that the "Kashmir" preamps in the new MixPre series are somewhat on par with their other series' preamps, I have a hard time believing that the sound quality of the recorders that had over 3-4 times the cost of the Mixpre 6 when they came out, can now be matched by one of their cheapest products.

I get that the Mixpre 6 is missing some properties of the other series, that also lead to a reduced price (such as robustness, timecode in the 744t, ...), but still there seems to be a huge price difference. Not to mention that the older, well established recorders are still being used by a lot of sound designers and companies (such as BOOM Library, which is sort of the stuff I'm shooting for :) ) and have been used for a very long time - but is it still worth buying one of those models instead of the MixPre?

 

I'm thankful for all experiences/ inputs regarding this; maybe there is even someone who owned/ owns a 7 or 6 series recorder as well as one of the MixPre recorders and thus might be able to directly compare them regarding preamp/ sound quality.

 

Thank you and best regards!

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Do you remember when it used to cost thousands of dollars for a “flat screen” TV? Now you can get a huge LED screen that looks better, lasts longer, and takes up less space for under $500. 

 

My point is that technology advances exponentially. Don’t judge new tech by old prices. Use your ears. The new Kashmir preamps won’t let you down. 

 

-Mike

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I think you should think about what your needs are. How many channels do you need? Of those channels, how many mic pre amps will you need? Do you need mixing functions built in, or just a recorder?

 

Personally, if all I needed were a few or more good sounding channels with mic pres, a used 788T would be a no brainer. You can record great stereo or multi channel effects, have enough channels for extensive sources including 7.1 capture, rock solid quality and durability, and you can find them at exceptionally reasonable prices on the used market. But that’s just my opinion. You should probably do your own homework and decide for yourself based on your needs. 

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I bought two mixpre-10’s to record sound effects. I had them locked together for bigger shoots. They do sound really nice, and were in general reliable machines. The thing that made me sell them was that the limiters were very slow to recover from loud transients. This may or may not be a problem for your needs. Now that their new firmware fixes the ultrasonic noise problem (pitching material at high sample rates WAY down would reveal this noise), the units are likely even better for use by sound designers. That said I’m waiting for something with limiters I like much more before buying another SD recorder. If they could take the 744’s limiters and put them in the mixpre series I’d be tempted. 

 

Again, they could be the perfect unit for you but it depends on the type of material you’re looking to record. 

 

Hope that helps,

P.

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Thank you for the replies so far!

 

4 hours ago, JonG said:

I think you should think about what your needs are. How many channels do you need? Of those channels, how many mic pre amps will you need? Do you need mixing functions built in, or just a recorder?

 

I think the majority of the time I will be using 1 or 2 mics, maximum 3; so the 702 would have enough inputs for most situations but it's a bit less future proof, although with the 744t I would also have to buy external preamps in order to make use of all the inputs. I don't need timecode and I don't necessarily need mixing functions built in. That's why my guess is that the 633 would not be a good choice for me because I'm probably paying a lot ofr a function that I don't really need (the Mixpre-3 is not an option because I want to be able to record at 192 kHz).

 

I listed the specific recorders above mainly because they would probably be available for me to buy used in my area (except the Mixpre 6, that would be a new unit) and the used prices for those recorders would be within my budget. For instance, a used 788t would be too expensive for me, because I would pay for a lot of features that I don't need (i.e. additional channels).

 

1 hour ago, Peshawar said:

I bought two mixpre-10’s to record sound effects. I had them locked together for bigger shoots. They do sound really nice, and were in general reliable machines. The thing that made me sell them was that the limiters were very slow to recover from loud transients. This may or may not be a problem for your needs. Now that their new firmware fixes the ultrasonic noise problem (pitching material at high sample rates WAY down would reveal this noise), the units are likely even better for use by sound designers. That said I’m waiting for something with limiters I like much more before buying another SD recorder. If they could take the 744’s limiters and put them in the mixpre series I’d be tempted.

 

I've read about this issue regarding the limiters before (maybe even in another post by you?) and depending on how bad/ significant this really is, it would be a problem for me as well, as I definitely want to record sounds with loud transients.

That's why I currently think that soundwise for what I want to do the 744t (or 702? - not sure about the limiters on that one) would be the best choice for me, as it has also been proven in this kind of area of recording sound effects (see BOOM Library).

 

Since you sold your units because of the limiters, I'm assuming that the problem is significant; if I may ask, have you tried combating the issue in post? I tend to heavily edit/ cleanup (and eventually mangle) my recordings. In case you've any recorded examples showcasing the problem, I would be very interested in hearing them.

 

And may I ask what you currently use for recording sound effects, now that you have sold the Mixpre-10s?

 

Again, thank everyone for the replies!

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For what you're describing the MixPre 3 seems to fit your needs pretty well. Try one out for the limiters. If you don't like them you may want to get a Zaxcom Maxx. If you want to spend less, think of using two components such as a used 442 or 302 with any recorder (as you don't need TC). This will give you amazing results.

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2 hours ago, Christian Spaeth said:

For what you're describing the MixPre 3 seems to fit your needs pretty well. Try one out for the limiters. If you don't like them you may want to get a Zaxcom Maxx. If you want to spend less, think of using two components such as a used 442 or 302 with any recorder (as you don't need TC). This will give you amazing results.

 

Danke, Christian. :)

 

Intitially I also considered the MixPre 3, but if I'm going with the MixPre series, then I would choose the 6 straight away, since it seems to be a little more future proof and the additional cost is not that high. But you are right that I will probably have to order the MixPre recorder and see if I like it and in the worst case return it.

 

But then I think the only realistic alternative for me would be a used 744 or even a 702, as the Zaxcom as well as the 788t don't really fit my budget (and the 788t seems a bit "overkill"). Unfortunately, used Sound Devices recorders are hard to come by in Germany (and Europe in general).

 

I have seen some used 744ts in good condition go for about 1800 - 2000 EUR (almost twice the price of a MixPre 6) - is that a good price range or should they be cheaper?

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You can sometimes see used mixpres in Kleinanzeigen, bblist or facebook postings, but in general people tend to keep them. If you look at those places you can find used 744ts at 1000-1500 euros, sometimes down to as low as 900.

 

Personally I am really a fan of the mixpre 6, but If you depend heavily on the limiter for loud transients - you might want to look elsewhere. The limiters are amazing for speach thought. I am curious how it would sound with a 302 or something in front on the occasions you want to record gunshots or so.

 

Does the 7 series recorders limiters sound good on spiky transients?

 

You dont happen to be in Berlin? If you are, you can come and try out the Mixpre after new years if you want.

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1 hour ago, Mattias Larsen said:

You can sometimes see used mixpres in Kleinanzeigen, bblist or facebook postings [...]

 

I just checked bblist and there is currently one for roughly the price of a MixPre 6.

Most reviews and comparisons of the MixPre recorders I've seen were about speech/ dialogue, I guess that's also mainly what they are targeting with those recorders.

 

The sound effects recordings that were done with the 7 series I've heard are great, including sounds with really loud transients. So for that application a 744t would definitely be great. However, it's been discontinued and of course is a bit clunkier and heavier than the MixPre 6 (which seems to be tiny :) ).

 

Unfortunately I'm not located near Berlin, but thank your for the offer. :) Would've definitely liked to try it uot that way.

 

8 minutes ago, OnTheSoundSideOfLife said:

What mics are you planning to use? It's probably the least important aspect, but I feel like certain mics fit better with certain pre-amps, depending on the sound you are going for (flat, neutral, clinical, boring, warm, exciting, colored).

 

Mainly the Sennheiser MKH 416 for now. :)

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I'm using a 744T for similiar applications, and besides missing a third pre sometimes, I love that little tank. If you want to record high SPL sounds, you can go into low range mode and you will barely touch the limiter. The only thing I would trade it for would be (maybe) a 633 or a Sonosax SX-R4+.

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Well I’m not sure what you mean by future proof. The only things that are ever going to be added to any field recorders would be features used for production sound. But a recorder is a recorder, and as long as you have good pre amps, limiters, and the ability to record high rez files, what else could they possibly add that would be a game changer? There are a few people here who do sound fx recording for a living and they mostly use the 702, 744, and 788. Many of them use a 442 in front of those recorders because it’s limiters are really good and really transparent. I think that no matter what you decide, you’ll probably need a 442 anyways. 

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27 minutes ago, JonG said:

Well I’m not sure what you mean by future proof. The only things that are ever going to be added to any field recorders would be features used for production sound. But a recorder is a recorder, and as long as you have good pre amps, limiters, and the ability to record high rez files, what else could they possibly add that would be a game changer? There are a few people here who do sound fx recording for a living and they mostly use the 702, 744, and 788. Many of them use a 442 in front of those recorders because it’s limiters are really good and really transparent. I think that no matter what you decide, you’ll probably need a 442 anyways. 

Interesting. I have not played much with the 442. I was once working with a mixer that used a F8 behind it. How Does those limiters compare to an older mixpre, 302 or mm 1? (Curious becouse I could fit a 302 in front of the mp6 in my current bag, but the 442 is a bit bigger.

 

To Op. I dont think that a 6 series limiter is much better for loud transients than an MP6 as the releasetime is just as slow if I recall correctly (even if the knee and when it kicks in is more customizable).

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1 hour ago, Patrick Tresch said:

I understand your budget restriction. But it only depends on how many years/gigs you want to have your ROI.   ;- )

If you build a sound library, I think it's made to last some years. Truth is, quality also depends on the skills of the recordist.

 

I'm completely with you on that, however I'm not doing this professionally, I'm an amateur and at the moment this is "only" a hobby that may or may not lead to something different. I've been recording with handheld recorders mostly so far and just recently found a good deal on a MKH 416 and am now looking to buy my first proper recorder. And as you also mentioned, since I'm not very experienced, my skills (or lack thereof) will most likely be the bottle neck, not the recorder. ;) 

However, I don't want to buy a cheap/ low-end unit that I will have to replace after a few months or a year; the cost of gradually improving equipment and the hassle of selling the old stuff is something I'm trying to avoid.

 

40 minutes ago, JonG said:

Well I’m not sure what you mean by future proof. The only things that are ever going to be added to any field recorders would be features used for production sound. But a recorder is a recorder, and as long as you have good pre amps, limiters, and the ability to record high rez files, what else could they possibly add that would be a game changer? There are a few people here who do sound fx recording for a living and they mostly use the 702, 744, and 788. Many of them use a 442 in front of those recorders because it’s limiters are really good and really transparent. I think that no matter what you decide, you’ll probably need a 442 anyways. 

 

By future proof I was mainly adressing the number of inputs, as I don't know if I ever want to use more than two microphones at the same time, then the 744 would at least give me the option to do that with something like an MP-1 - or am I missing something?

But you are right that it's probably going to be either the 702 or the 744, as I've ruled the 788 out due to pricing and size, and unfortunately the MixPre 3/6 seems to have problematic limiter settings, that can't be changed.

 

I've now seen some 702s and 744s offered in a very similar price range (lowest I've seen for both is around the price of a MixPre 6; ~ 1050 EUR).

What would be a very good price for a used 702?

 

33 minutes ago, Mattias Larsen said:

Interesting. I have not played much with the 442. I was once working with a mixer that used a F8 behind it. How Does those limiters compare to an older mixpre, 302 or mm 1? (Curious becouse I could fit a 302 in front of the mp6 in my current bag, but the 442 is a bit bigger.

 

Here is a limiter comparison of some Sound Devices recorders (unfprtuantely the new MixPre series is not included):

https://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/788t-limiter-overview

 

For anyone interested, I just found a comparison between the MixPre 6 and the 633 when recording loud sources and engaging the limiter that I think is showcasing the problem Peshawar mentioned. The difference is especially audible at the end with the recorded claps. The uploader apparently ended up selling the MixPre 6 due to this.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, spekter said:

Since you sold your units because of the limiters, I'm assuming that the problem is significant; if I may ask, have you tried combating the issue in post? I tend to heavily edit/ cleanup (and eventually mangle) my recordings. In case you've any recorded examples showcasing the problem, I would be very interested in hearing them.

 

And may I ask what you currently use for recording sound effects, now that you have sold the Mixpre-10s?

 

Again, thank everyone for the replies!

 

Yes, I did do a lot of processing to get closer to the results I wanted. And I’ve used many of the mixpre recordings at my work (video game sounds for military themed project). 

 

But I ended up using multiple Tascam HSP82’s with both onboard and external preamps going in via line and AES to get closer to what I wanted. It ended up being an expensive, awkward, and power hungry mass of stuff. It worked pretty well, but in the end I realized that I just need to wait for the right recorder. I’m past the immediate need to record huge amounts of source material, and I’m downsizing the rig slowly. If I had it to do over again, I would have put serious consideration into a Cantar X3. In the end it would have been cheaper than chasing all the stuff the way I did. Live and learn. 

 

As for the mixpre limiters. They don’t sound “bad”. They just react in a way that didn’t work for my target material / subjective sound results. As has been mentioned, they do work nicely on speech, and slower attack sounds. Not having them selectable by channel was also a downside in my view, but again, it is almost entirely dependent on what you’re seeking to do. The preamps themselves sounded better to my ears than the 7xx series (which are still very good).  

 

Also mentioned above are the 442 limiters which are excellent. If SD could combine the 442 limiters (or an improvement upon them), the robustness and reliability of the 7xx series, and the overall preamp sound of the new mixpres it would have been perfect. For my needs, anyway.  

 

In the end I came away much poorer and disappointed. I didn’t crack the code for exactly what I wanted, and ran out of time.  Maybe what I want exists, but I’m in the midst of a different stage of the project and it’ll have to wait before I can dive back in again. 

 

-P.

 

 

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I believe that the limiters on the 442 are the same as on the 302 and MM1, but they do change when you get into the recorders and mixer/recorders. 

 

I know you think that the 788 is big but it’s not much bigger than a 702 or 744. If you are leaning towards one of these you may also try a 722. They aren’t very common but they are essentially the same as a 702 but with a hard drive. 

 

If if you want to future proof yourself, the 744 is the way I’d go. Many people are selling 442/744 combos at reasonable prices. But you could start with the 744, have two mic pres, and get a 442 later if you decide you need more mic pres and better limiters. 

 

I know some people say that the new mixpres have good sounding mic pres, but I’ve seen a lot of posts about there being audible anomalies which would make any kind of sound gathering worthless. Not sure 100% about the cause and if there is a solution, but it makes me take a step back from having any interest in them. 

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If all you need is 2 mic inputs 744 is an easy choice.  Can't kill it, famous dynamics control+ pres, cheap prices.  If it is an older one you may have to spend some $ having the rubber buttons fixed by SD, they all eventually wear out.   When you need 4 mic inputs there are lots of choices to feed 744 inputs 3/4.  When you need more than 4 you can look into either renting (if it is a one-off gig) or moving to a recorder with more inputs.  Many pro SFX recordists still use a combo of 744s, 442 mixers, and 788s for all the dynamics, pre and ruggedness features mentioned above, often for very dynamic sources like guns.  I don't understand what "future proofing" means in this context: those older SD recorders sound about as good as recorders can sound.  Later recorder models of all brands add tracks, metadata management features, control-surface utility, computer interface features, automix etc etc, but the basic sound they record from a mic is pretty much the same.  Slightly different perhaps, but not necessarily better.

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Even though I like the Kashmir-preamps, I don't like the MixPre-limiters even on dialogue. Personally, I'd go for a 7-series recorder for pure FX work. Don't get me wrong, the MixPres are perfectly workable machines, I just personally prefer the 6-series and the 7-series limiters. I've heard the 7-series pres are better than 6-series, but can't confirm personally since I haven't compared them. I've hardly ever used 7-series machines.

2 good pres will get you really, really far. Unless you're planning on very thorough multi-mic sessions, it's likely you can get a lot of really good material on a pair of pres, I've gotten useable stuff on my iPhone. :D

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I agree with all those who recommend the 744. Even though I sold mine, I still feel like it’s the best sounding SD recorder, and I especially liked the limiter on it, actually. Instead of going with the 442 (which is large and heavy) you could get the original MixPre to add to more mic inputs to the 744. of course, if you need four identical micpres the 442 might be better. 

But if future-proof to you means more tracks and inputs then it should be the 788. if you have some time you should find a good deal without a CL-8 which you won’t need. Soundwise I always preferred the 744 (although I have never done an actual comparison), but the 788 sounds very good, too and is usually rock-solid. And you‘ll have 8 inputs ready to go whenvever you might need them in a package that’s only slightly larger than the 744. if take the 744/442 route, that‘ll be much larger and heavier for four pres than the 788 is for 8. 

 

Especially as it’s a hobby for you for now, I bet that soon you‘d want to record surround effects, because... it’s a lot of fun. You can record some sort of quad mic setup with the 744, but with the 788 you can do so much more.  

I know, budget is a concern, but getting something you‘ll outgrow within a few months is more expensive than getting the bigger machine now. And a used 788 has never been as cheap as today

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