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Danny O'Caster

Workflow for Beginner. Advice needed.

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First, thank you Jim for the kind words. 

 

Second, I’d like to attempt to clarify my earlier statement.

 

I don’t mind you attempting to do production sound and post-production sound. I also don’t mind that post is not the main focus of this group. There are a few posties here and there presence is a benefit to all of us. Heck, there are even a few camera people here whose presence I value. 

To be sure, I don’t mind you being a newbie and asking questions, even though this forum is aimed at working professionals, I was a newbie once, just like everyone here. I have always (or almost always) offered anwers to and tried to help with newbie questions. 

What I do mind is that you come here and just ask us to tell you basically everything about our job, to basically teach you our job so you can do yours. There is no hint whatsoever that you have done any of the work yourself - read a book, read more or less every topic in this forum and others, etc. „nah, I can‘t be bothered to, it’s just too much work, just tell me what I need to know and I can get on with it“ is what this reeks of to me. You expect us to do your work for you. 

 

In my previous work life I got many emails where people asked me to provide my work to them for free (it was a digital download), because after all, it’s there already, right? It’s typical of the internet age. „You have all this knowledge already, just give it to me“. 

Sorry you find that condescending. And I may be totally wrong in my judgement of you (I actually hope that I am) and maybe you’re not part of the entitlement generation, but you came across in your first post as if you were

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I miss the forum for a couple of days, and things explode!

 

Danny, I wrote the book Jim so kindly refers to. It's required reading at a lot of university film courses, but I basically wrote it as a how-to rather than a textbook. It could help you. I'll disclose a financial interest: I get a bit less than $3 for each copy sold. (Amazon, and then the publisher, get the rest.) There are sample chapters and other details at GreatSound.info. I also wrote a bunch of other stuff; follow the links from GreatSound to my main site.

 

I did this to share what so many mentors have been kind enough to teach me, along with what I've gleaned in a long and happy career doing both national and indie projects.

 

Read it. If you have reasonable and meaningful questions, I'd be glad to answer them. And pay attention to the folks on this board. We are, by and large, professionals secure in our positions who are more than willing to help a newbie... who's done the basics and knows what to ask.

 

And don't be put off by the sharp answers. A lot of us are tired of people saying "you've got a cushy job here... how can I have it?"  It's not cushy. It's a rewarding, artistic and technical craft that we work hard to do right.

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+1 Constantin, Jay, and many others who have cared enough to offer their wisdom.

 

Perhaps it's worth mention at this point that the single most important skill of our profession is listening.

 

 

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On 2/28/2019 at 12:01 AM, Jim Feeley said:

 

"Don't you agree that this $25 mic I found on eBay is better than a Schweppes?"

 

 

Jim, you should clarify that this question could never be adequately answered unless we know what color of Schweppes we are talking about.

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13 hours ago, Christian Spaeth said:

Jim, you should clarify that this question could never be adequately answered unless we know what color of Schweppes we are talking about.

 

Christian, that joke is So Duh! 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

(in case that doesn't make sense in Europe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_drink)

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Welcome Danny. Just an observation, if you or anyone thinks this is a rude reception or answers to a terrible question, the real world will eat you up and spit out whatever it doesn’t devour of you. Perhaps an introduction of yourself and place in the community and your current job would be a good place to start instead of a overly broad question painted bright green. Best of luck.

CrewC

 

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I'm a nobody here too, OP, but must say this site I go out of my way to find and read from time to time. A lot of disruption in the democratization of film, the new generation of young people wanting to push their way in, who didn't maybe have the same often brutal baptisms of fire others had to endure. (There was once a time when experience was a requirement... no, it seems, the powers that be want yes people who do what they are told, and not real artists.)

 

I can tell you the audio world, from this nob's POV, is so daunting I have largely been blown away by it, and I am 56, and first had my hands on a mixer in a sound booth at the Rainbow Grill at (I think) 30 Rock back in 1979! I was only 16! Let me just say it was a travesty that the stage manager stuck me in there as I also had to do the lighting and sound for the show, whenever he was gone!

 

So... there are productions and then there are productions. Odds are most of the people in this community have spent their lives working in the best productions you or I have ever heard. They got degrees in audio engineering. It is a science. They may have been musicians, songwriters, odds are they gravitated to sound because they love it. Have you ever played golf with someone better than you? It's analogous because there is always someone out there who will beat you, who has put in more work than you, has more gifts... but that doesn't mean you should let yourself (like me) be blown out either.

 

I worked in magazines most of my career. I was in sales. That is a terrible job but it is what makes things happen. No sales, nobody works. But, I had nothing to sell without the writers, photographers, editors, designers.

 

Later in life I had this fabulous idea I'd start my own magazine. I had big ambitions. I also had competition, and had reality converge with my 'vision'. Those things forced me to rush out a piece of crap. For 24 years I did more crap, only it got marginally better. Was I ever going to do it like I could, had I spent my time selling and raising the real cash to hire out gifted talent, that loved what they do and are exponentially better at their 'craft' than I? No. I hated sales, like most people do, and continued to put out my crap.

 

It won awards, it is a niche thing, but honestly... it's crap. 

 

I remember, back in those late 1970s and early 1980s, I worked for the same production company at another (bigger) show.No way was I going near audio there! Real International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees union members, audio engineers, handled that! I recall there were (among them) a few moody, often irritable, nasty-seeming fellows. Hurt my feelings on a coupe of occasions.

 

Over the past few years, in trying to figure out something else to make crap with, like video, I found myself realizing 80% of what you 'see's audio. It occurred to me that I too could do it myself. More crap.

 

Do you give up and fold up your tent? Nah.

 

But, these folks here are like the golfing equivalent of the PGA Tour's best players, many anyway. Like pro golfers, they have worked their butts off untold years so when we appear in threads on this forum, and want instant gratification, it is tantamount to an insult. It is insulting. I don't mean this in a negative way, as you have already seen and read what others here have said, and you are clearly mindful of their feelings... but like others said it might take 10K hours, or 30!

 

But, in the end, even if what you do is crap, it might get incrementally better, and one day, you might be on here offering some idiot like me advice... and you can bet your bottom dollar I'll need it and be thankful.

 

I wrote this because I have posted one or a few questions in the past, bought some things here on this site, and it has always been good to moe, and I feel for the many people here who have worked their whole lives in audio, and might feel slight by us newbies. We do 'get it', but some of us are so marginalized we are desperate! (I wouldn't be reading this thread if I found such a wealth of quality information at gearslutz, dvxuser, reducer, etc....)

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Thanks, but while there are many "audio stars" among the regular posters to this forum, there are also a lot of us mokes that get along on much smaller and less glamorous gigs.   That's one of the things I like about this place.

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On 2/27/2019 at 8:29 PM, jwanek said:

 

So territorial and insecure, like a little dog that claims the fire hydrant as his own. Hilarious and quite sad, actually.

 

 

Something that happened me several years ago, I hope it will illustrate why it’s not a case of territoriality.

 

I administered a Mac users forum in Spain. Suddenly I had serious family problems and I had to downsize responsibilities. So they found another guy who was reportedly a super expert on Linux and all that. The forum runs on FreeBSD but both are Unix systems and so the differences are minimal if you understand what’s going on.

 

So, a week later I receive an email that says “How do I install Nginx? It was not a doubt about a particular aspect of it, but something that is trivial to find on the manual. 

 

So how long would be the answer to the OP? 500 pages like Jay Rose’s book? The guy I am talking about was mostly a bozo who thought that he would get quick one line answers for a one page manual topic. And he didn’t even bother to read the manual, or he would have specific questions. Reminds me of a child psychologist I heard once talking about homework help. If they ask for a specific trouble spot it’s fine of course. If they say “I don’t understand _anything_ and they are unable to point out a particular problem area it just means they didn’t bother to read it and they want you to do it for them ;)

 

 

Now, my recommendation for the post world and general audio understanding: “Matering Audio, the Art and the Science” by Bob Katz.

 

 

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Do what I did, learn from a professional as a trainiee before you start to call yourself a sound recordist/mixer or post production mixer. 

 

The amount of people who have business cards saying as much because they have a music technology degree but then send me a CV asking to be trainee is mind boggling. 

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On 2/27/2019 at 4:15 AM, Bash said:

she tells me regularly that she learns something every time she plays and or puts pen to paper. 

 

+11111

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On 2/28/2019 at 11:17 PM, Constantin said:

First, thank you Jim for the kind words. 

 

Second, I’d like to attempt to clarify my earlier statement.

 

I don’t mind you attempting to do production sound and post-production sound. I also don’t mind that post is not the main focus of this group. There are a few posties here and there presence is a benefit to all of us. Heck, there are even a few camera people here whose presence I value. 

To be sure, I don’t mind you being a newbie and asking questions, even though this forum is aimed at working professionals, I was a newbie once, just like everyone here. I have always (or almost always) offered anwers to and tried to help with newbie questions. 

What I do mind is that you come here and just ask us to tell you basically everything about our job, to basically teach you our job so you can do yours. There is no hint whatsoever that you have done any of the work yourself - read a book, read more or less every topic in this forum and others, etc. „nah, I can‘t be bothered to, it’s just too much work, just tell me what I need to know and I can get on with it“ is what this reeks of to me. You expect us to do your work for you. 

 

In my previous work life I got many emails where people asked me to provide my work to them for free (it was a digital download), because after all, it’s there already, right? It’s typical of the internet age. „You have all this knowledge already, just give it to me“. 

Sorry you find that condescending. And I may be totally wrong in my judgement of you (I actually hope that I am) and maybe you’re not part of the entitlement generation, but you came across in your first post as if you were

Hi Constantin,

 

I am part of the 'millenials', and we have a bad rep for being the entitled generation, and rightly so. We are the generation that wants it all now, instant gratification and we don't really want to slave away and put too much effort in either, especially if there is a youtube video on how to do it quicker. As a generalisation, we would prefer to just jump into a position, rather than work our way up from the bottom. So I can see how from the perspective of someone in the industry who has worked hard for a long time that must be really annoying.

 

I have actually gained a huge heap of info from this thread alone and from people's links and comments. Its been educational! I am grateful to anyone who has taken the time to respond with useful links or info. :)

 

Dan

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On 2/26/2019 at 11:56 AM, Danny O'Caster said:

Just signed up to this site, this is my first post.

 


Welcome to the Lion's Den! :-P Ha

Anywho....  beyond the resources people already mentioned (like Jay Rose's book), I recommend:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Location-Sound-Bible-Record-Professional/dp/1615931201/

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Effects-Bible-Create-Hollywood/dp/1932907483/

 

https://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Editing-Motion-Pictures-Invisible/dp/0415828171/

 

https://www.amazon.com/Location-Audio-Simplified-Capturing-Audience-dp-1138129623/dp/1138129623/

 

Books are cheap and provide an education valued far more than what it cost you!

But we're really spoiled in 2019, as we've got heaps which are FREE! Like YouTube, hundreds of hours of education here, a few youtube channels to subscribe to are:

https://www.youtube.com/SoundSpeeding (yes... I might be a little biased with this suggestion! ha)
 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0vDTntQjs8RD4F6XRlducA

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiVcZ1ObuU7qh1NWMGFB4HQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq1FV79pJLa8sxcbZ3tAYrg

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ThatWasSound

 

https://www.youtube.com/indepthsounddesign

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqtCwfDs0b8xhEl6WhwhmqA

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/DavidFarmerSound/

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Ia8iUOV9va_AkG-IIOfIg

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq297H7Ca98HlB5mVFHGSsQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/audiogeekzine

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMUHt6JzCMsdtvkaJpU3KXw

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDBV1_28Q_NKF2SxnLO-3jg

 

That will surely keep you very busy! 😉 Come on back after watching all these if you have any questions....

 

On 3/1/2019 at 12:17 PM, Constantin said:

read more or less every topic in this forum and others


I may post a lot to this forum, however I still manage to read waaaaay more than I post here!

But yet I still post dumb questions now and then....  we all have brain farts now and then, however showing an effort of at least trying counts for something!

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