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Zaxcom ERX as Camera Hops - New Problem

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35 minutes ago, Bouke said:

You are forgetting one thing:
It was about making clear if a TC stream is 23.976 or 24.
Measuring duration takes time to be sure. If you read the DF / NDF bit (that is in every frame), that could be a dead giveaway of what it 'should' be. (thus, instead of looking for frame duration with a 0.1% difference.)

Next, if DF keeps the TC 'as good as possible' in sync with the time on the wall, thus 24, 25 and 30 also should/could be called DF. (drop nothing if not needed.)

Now, please open Wave Agent (still in beta), and see that they have both 30 DF and NDF. (That makes no sense to me...)

 

I am aware of the context, but I disagree with your direct association with calling anything that stays in sync with the wall clock DF.  I think it's misleading at the least because nothing is dropped.

More so, SMPTE 12 & 12-1 define how the frame rates should be labeled, including the DF NDF flag, and going against that seems like a bad idea to me.  

Now, why Wave Agent has 30 DF??  I don't know.  Only Sound Devices can comment there.

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On 3/10/2019 at 11:35 AM, Bouke said:

For the freaks: (Read, @Klaus)

It would make a nice feature to flag 24 as DROP, what it in fact is, and 23.976 as NON DROP, what it in fact is.

So, no need to get involved.

 

9 minutes ago, Wandering Ear said:

SMPTE 12 & 12-1

I'll read up when I have time.

 

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Wandering Ear is correct.

 

The term "Drop Frame" is misleading to many people because it doesn't drop any frames, it simply counts them differently (as Kelsey outlined above). In the past, I've commented that it would be better named as "Skip Count" time code.

 

30 DF and NDF have the same frames -- again, it's about the count, not the frames.

 

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Well, I totally agree on the misleading name.
But, this is about flipping one BIT (!), indicating frame length * frame rate equals one second or not.

(And for the sake of the argument, I used drop/non drop to indicate just that.)

 

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7 hours ago, Bouke said:

...

But, this is about flipping one BIT (!), indicating frame length * frame rate equals one second or not.

(And for the sake of the argument, I used drop/non drop to indicate just that.)

 

 

Unfortunately, such misuse of terms is the cause for much misunderstanding which the internet tends to spread easily.

 

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10 hours ago, John Blankenship said:

 

Unfortunately, such misuse of terms is the cause for much misunderstanding which the internet tends to spread easily.

 

 

Like when people say “podium” but they mean “lecturn”, or when they say “sound proofing” but really mean “acoustical treatment” ;)

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If I understand correctly then Bouke is saying that there's a flag (data bit) in the TC stream which usually is used to indicate DF vs NDF, but which also could be used to tell the camera in an instant if synch is at 24.000 or 23.976 vs having to wait a lot of frames to even out jitter.

 

sounds like a good feature to me, but I agree that this should not result in 24.000 or 25.000 TC called drop frame, but rather invent a new term for this (it's confusing already the way it is ; )

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59 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

If I understand correctly then Bouke is saying that there's a flag (data bit) in the TC stream which usually is used to indicate DF vs NDF, but which also could be used to tell the camera in an instant if synch is at 24.000 or 23.976 vs having to wait a lot of frames to even out jitter.

 

sounds like a good feature to me, but I agree that this should not result in 24.000 or 25.000 TC called drop frame, but rather invent a new term for this (it's confusing already the way it is ; )

There is a flag in the TC stream that indicates DF or NDF.  According the SMPTE timecode spec, which all TC capable device follow this is not used to indicate integer frame rates.  Bouke was presenting a theoretical update to the TC spec, not something that can be utilized today.

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Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere but this is my first time seeing and i am curious if it also applies to the mini since they share similar menus?

https://ambient.de/tutorial/how-to-sync-arri-amira-tutorial/

 

On a day off i may try to visit local camera rental house to see if they will let me set up a mini and walk thru all these steps with all tc things i have non-ambient and report any successes

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20 hours ago, osa said:

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere but this is my first time seeing and i am curious if it also applies to the mini since they share similar menus?

https://ambient.de/tutorial/how-to-sync-arri-amira-tutorial/

 

On a day off i may try to visit local camera rental house to see if they will let me set up a mini and walk thru all these steps with all tc things i have non-ambient and report any successes

Osa, I didn't go thru the link you sent, but it is titled, Amira, not mini.

 

Thanks, Martin

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1 hour ago, MartinTheMixer said:

Osa, I didn't go thru the link you sent, but it is titled, Amira, not mini.

 

Thanks, Martin

Exactly thats why i mentioned above i wonder if this applies to the mini. Others here mentioned they use the same fw updates. Its worth going thru the link as it looks like it covers a lot in the sync process that may be overlooked

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1 minute ago, osa said:

Exactly thats why i mentioned above i wonder if this applies to the mini. Others here mentioned they use the same fw updates. Its worth going thru the link as it looks like it covers a lot in the sync process that may be overlooked

Osa, 10-4. I will watch it. I will be on an Amira in about an hour. I'm going to try hooking up to it the same as I did that Mini last week. 

I will let you know what happens.  I have hooked up to this particular camera before, this exact serial numbered camera.  If it works or if it doesn't work I'll check the firmware version. I wonder what brand, other than Tentacle sync and Zaxcom, the Mini doesn't like. 

Thanks, Martin

 

 

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5 hours ago, MartinTheMixer said:

Osa, 10-4. I will watch it. I will be on an Amira in about an hour. I'm going to try hooking up to it the same as I did that Mini last week. 

I will let you know what happens.  I have hooked up to this particular camera before, this exact serial numbered camera.  If it works or if it doesn't work I'll check the firmware version. I wonder what brand, other than Tentacle sync and Zaxcom, the Mini doesn't like. 

Thanks, Martin

 

 

I personally have had success with tentacle and all mini's i have worked with, but i know a few others differ. I suspect current mini fw updates might be where the tentacle is more reliable. I am personally getting the feeling denecke n ambient are the most reliable at present across the board? But i would love to hear your feedback on the amira menu if it is indeed similar to the mini - particularly confirming project timebase frame rate and genlock set to tc in settings and if you had jamming success. These menu items are deeper than i was able to get familiar with. Ultimately i want to be able to attach an ERX to a mini with totall successful tc and a guide track. To this day i have relied on other methods with every Mini I have come in contact with present firmware included and through multiple friendly ac's trying to figure it out quickly. If I do get a chance to sit with a Mini and run thru all these tests I will report back. 

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On 3/15/2019 at 4:59 PM, Wandering Ear said:

this is not used to indicate integer frame rates. 

 

I assume, this is 'Used to indicate NON integer frame rates'

 

Please point me to the proper docs!

(and yes, this is purely hypothetical nerd talk.)

Bouke

 

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10 hours ago, MartinTheMixer said:

I wonder what brand, other than Tentacle sync and Zaxcom, the Mini doesn't like. 

 

No no no, don’t drag Tentacle into this. There are no confirmed reports that I am aware that a Tentacle won’t work with Mini. And certainly my approx. 120 days with four different Tentacles in the last 1 1/2 years with a Mini say it works well. The one cameraman who thought your Tentacle could have looked like the thing he had been using and which wasn’t working, isn’t exactly what I‘d call a confirmed report. Was there any troubleshooting? (I don’t actually want to know, just saying that one report just isn’t enough). 

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9 minutes ago, Constantin said:

 

No no no, don’t drag Tentacle into this. There are no confirmed reports that I am aware that a Tentacle won’t work with Mini. And certainly my approx. 120 days with four different Tentacles in the last 1 1/2 years with a Mini say it works well. The one cameraman who thought your Tentacle could have looked like the thing he had been using and which wasn’t working, isn’t exactly what I‘d call a confirmed report. Was there any troubleshooting? (I don’t actually want to know, just saying that one report just isn’t enough). 

Hi,  It wasn't that he thought it could have looked like, it was that it did look like the one that I showed him. You mentioned "my tentacle", I don't own and have never owned a Tentacle product. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anyways, the Tentacle flashed the same warning. Also, he wasn't a "camera man", he is a d.p.

 

As far as time goes, that was the first time I have ever had time code do anything odd with any camera ever. I find it interesting that the D.P. hadn't had problems until recently and the problem was absolutely not Zaxcom. 

 

Thanks, Martin

 

 

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25 minutes ago, MartinTheMixer said:

Hi,  It wasn't that he thought it could have looked like, it was that it did look like the one that I showed him. You mentioned "my tentacle", I don't own and have never owned a Tentacle product. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anyways, the Tentacle flashed the same warning. Also, he wasn't a "camera man", he is a d.p.

 

Oh my, seems like I stepped on a few toes there. Hope it doesn’t hurt. 

Anyway, as they say here: it’s the exception that proves the rule

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Just now, Constantin said:

 

Oh my, seems like I stepped on a few toes there. Hope it doesn’t hurt. 

Anyway, as they say here: it’s the exception that proves the rule

Hi, You didn't step on my toes, I don't own any Tentacle sync, you only merely misstated something. And yes, I agree, the one time that I had a warning on the Arri, was the exception, that was the first time.

Thanks, Martin

 

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Hey guys, remember what the subject of this thread is?

 

So what’s the verdict? Anybody else here experiencing problems with Zax and the Mini? Let’s stay on point here. Thx. 

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13 hours ago, MartinTheMixer said:

Hi, You didn't step on my toes, I don't own any Tentacle sync, you only merely misstated something.

 

Yes, and I also misstated the cameraman vs. dp situation, but both are completely irrelevant to the discussion here. 

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45 minutes ago, Constantin said:

 

Yes, and I also misstated the cameraman vs. dp situation, but both are completely irrelevant to the discussion here. 

Hi, No, I don't think the DP is irrelevant. He had the same time code warning situation with an Arri Mini the week before with a non Zaxcom product. And that is the problem, the warning.  There is no time code problem, just a time code warning problem. As I mentioned earlier, if it were a time code problem, then there would be a problem on the Amira as well. 

 

Thank you, Martin

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