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G3 camera hops and playback on set.


Ross Sound

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Hi all,

 

I have a two part question,

 

My situation: Im currently shooting a bunch of videos that require a hop from a Zoom F8 to a RED Helium. The main reason for the hop is so that the director can have playback on set (i.e hear the audio when playing back visuals). I've been asked to set up a way that the director can hear audio (with picture) back out loud (no headphones). 

 

My questions: 1.What is the best way to set up my G3s? (sensitivity,AF out, Cable types, inputs,outputs).

                       2. What do i need to do on the RED? i wanted to go into the RED line level but i've found playback is very quiet from the RED even if the level is healthy.

                       3. What is the normal way to setup playback on set? (visual and audio synced, out loud and possibly HP's)

 

 

 

Equipment involved:

-Zoom F8

-Sennheiser G3/G4

-RED Camera and Module

-Teradek Bolt Wireless

-Monitor (cant remember what monitor but its audio is very quiet and only has a single HP 3.5mm out)/a TV may be available 

 

I would really appreciate any help on this topic! And unfortunately saying it isn't my responsability or ask the camera op isn't a helpful answer in this situation.

 

:) 

 

Thanks,

 

Ross

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This will need to be a collaborative effort with the camera department to try this out the day before if possible or find time on the day. Also make sure DoP is fine with the receiver on the camera. 

For cable: the Red has a mini ts input and if you use the regular Sennheiser cable you‘ll need a mono adapter. 

Levels you need to find out on the day. 

Bring some small speakers to amp the signal from the monitor. 

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Yup, Constantin is right this will take some coordination. Try to get involved on a prep day so that you can setup and test the workflow in advance. You should also be paid for this day, the camera dept will be. 

 

Couple things from my experience with Reds and G3s to watch out for....

 

There is a good chance that the red, once fully setup with all the accessories they plan on using, will emit a huge amount of RFI/EMI interference that will swamp your little G3 receiver. To see this in action keep your transmitter off and tune the g3 to an open frequency. Now bring the g3 over to the red (powered up with all accessories running) and watch the RF meter fill up. I’ve found there’s just not much you can do about this. Placement can help a bit so experiment with that and sometimes a bad BNC cable or power cable is to blame. But I’ve found it’s almost impossible to get ACs to start swapping cables out that are working perfectly fine for them. 

 

Ultimately, it will probably work work fine because once you power up your transmitter it should still lock on as long as you don’t push it with the range. You just need to be aware of the limitations. A more robust receiver like a 411a would be better. SRs have also suffered with Reds in my experience. 

 

Red audio settings are irritating at best if you’re not familiar so give yourself plenty of time to fiddle with that. Depending on the model and input accessories available you may need to pad the receiver output down to mic level in the g3 menu. I usually have the camera guys put the “A-box” on and that allows me to use the standard XLR output cable for the g3 but you could go a few different routes. 

 

The biggest thing is to just make sure you have enough time to do all this and test and not try to squeeze it in just before they want to roll. 

 

For the playback back part I’d recommend finding a small powered speaker (Speakeasy or Foster) that you can connect to the monitor to boost the volume. An sdi connection from camera to monitor should carry your audio along with it as should a teradek transmitter unless it was setup to omit audio. Careful with feedback and make sure it’s off when not working. Unfortunately it’ll probably be up to you to babysit it. 

 

Lots of places and device menus to get bogged down on this one! Good luck. 

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Thanks both, this is really helpful. I'm going to try and arrange a day of prep and hopefully get this to work! We will see what happens! Playback is something i don't normally have to do, what's the standard way to do this? is there some equipment the crew can hire/buy?.. Thanks again. 

 

 

 

Anyone who has a good starting point for G3 hop settings would be amazing. I'll be pushed for time on the day (as we all are). 

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Last time I did a scratch to helium with a G2 (same as G3/4 in therms of output etc) it was pretty straight forward. Didn't need a mono cable, just use a standard short angled trs cable, So i don't know what @Constantin means with the mono cable actually. My standard workflow for these things is to set 1K tone from the recorder into the TX, set the level of the tx healthy (something you can do now already, go to the Red and connect everything and "line up the levels". I believe I had my output set to 0dB but don't know for sure. All in all this should take 5 minutes max.
The director I give a G series IEM tuned to the same channel, so he can listen during the take, if he wants to hear it on speakers it is a matter of setting up a powered speaker at the "video village" connected to the monitor, taking the audio from the video feed. Be aware this always needs to be powered down or turned down during the take, so I always advice against it unless the village is far away, because that is an "accident" waiting to happen.  If the HP output of the monitor is low, you can always put a headphone amp between the monitor and the headphones. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Ross Sound said:

Thanks both, this is really helpful. I'm going to try and arrange a day of prep and hopefully get this to work! We will see what happens! Playback is something i don't normally have to do, what's the standard way to do this? is there some equipment the crew can hire/buy?.. Thanks again. 

 

 

 

Anyone who has a good starting point for G3 hop settings would be amazing. I'll be pushed for time on the day (as we all are). 

 

We just gave you this advice. If you’re unfamiliar with the settings of the g3 then you need to read manual and spend some time with the unit. 

 

I don’t understand what exactly you’re looking for here. 

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I've worked with RED cameras plenty of times. Things are less hairy than a few years ago, but still not perfect. So in addition to the solid advice above, let me add:

 

1) Find out exactly what model RED camera model and firmware you're be working with. Helium is the name RED gives to a particular sensor that can be found in at least two different model cameras). Could be they're working with a DSMC2 "Brain" or could be an earlier Epic model. And ask what audio I/O that particular camera has https://www.red.com/dsmc2 . Do they have a RED I/O module, or a Wooden Camera A-Box https://woodencamera.com/collections/red-dsmc2-accessory-kits/products/a-box-red-dsmc2 . Or what?

 

2) Download and read the manual for that particular camera and firmware

https://www.red.com/downloads/options?itemInternalId=16115

 

3) Be ready to run a cable to the camera. I've ended up doing that a few times with RED cameras, usually to get around RF problems. That could be a reasonable way to go here, if it'll work with the camera department.

 

Good luck!

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6 hours ago, Ontariosound said:

Perhaps you are in a little over your head.  FYI if you are involved with any RED camera shoot be prepared for many technical issues. And sound will

be pushed far down on the list of priorities. 

Thanks Everybody,

 

I'm not in over my head and i'm not really worried about the shoot.  I completely understand G3's. I've just had issues with RED cameras before and i'm just wondering what everybody else would do. Sorry for asking so many questions, i ask the basic questions because  you can still learn new things :) 

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21 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

 So i don't know what @Constantin means with the mono cable actually. 

 

My experience with a Helium with sound is rather limited, same with all Reds, actually.

But it used to be that the Red had a balanced audio input and the Sennheiser output is unbalanced. That resulted in no audio. 

This may have changed, or maybe the menu choice „balanced or unbalanced“ audio actually makes a difference now 

 

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46 minutes ago, Constantin said:

 

My experience with a Helium with sound is rather limited, same with all Reds, actually.

But it used to be that the Red had a balanced audio input and the Sennheiser output is unbalanced. That resulted in no audio. 

This may have changed, or maybe the menu choice „balanced or unbalanced“ audio actually makes a difference now 

 

 

The newer Red bodies changed again some time back with an unbalanced single TRS jack on the rear -- but, who knows, it may have changed yet again since then... 

 

The last time I used one there were ground issues when powered from the camera battery.

 

Ironically, there have been less issues with time code on a Red than on the ARRIs.  Mind you, that's with an attached box continuously feeding TC -- the Red generators aren't reliable, but taking continuous external code they've been solid.  The ARRI Minis are the opposite -- good internal generators, but flaky when taking external code.  However, the latest firmware seems to have improved that greatly.

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1 hour ago, John Blankenship said:

 

The newer Red bodies changed again some time back with an unbalanced single TRS jack on the rear -- but, who knows, it may have changed yet again since then... 

 

Yes, it seems like they changed that. 

Bottom line, it can’t hurt to have a mono adapter nearby, just in case

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Red cameras I end up working with are often personally owned, so you can't always count on a sensible well-thought out package like a rental house might make (that includes the correct audio adapters for that specific camera body).  I find I have to communicate directly with the camera's owner, and that often they themselves do do understand that aspect of their camera very well since they usually have someone else taking care of those issues.  So....having a range of options on hand has turned out to be a good idea.  This is especially true if there are multiple cameras coming from multiple sources!

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