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soundbeard

New to Sound - looking for gear advice

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I do not understand all this negativity about the 416. For the price, it is still unbeatable in Europe. It had never failed me, and I usually go 416/70 for exteriors, rather than 60/70.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I do not understand all this negativity about the 416. For the price, it is still unbeatable in Europe. It had never failed me, and I usually go 416/70 for exteriors, rather than 60/70.

 

 

People tend to cheer for their own horse, and like to sing in a choir. Another day another choir will sing the praise of 416.

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7 hours ago, Niels said:

People tend to cheer for their own horse, and like to sing in a choir.


That is exactly why the 416 gets mentioned so often. 
It is a self repeating cycle. 

People recommend the 416 because back when they were starting out thirty years ago the 416 was the best choice. 
Then other people recommend the 416 because the 416 was recommend by yet other people to themselves beforehand. 

And so the circle of life carries on, and the 416 gets recommended for another year after another year. 

 

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:


That is exactly why the 416 gets mentioned so often. 
It is a self repeating cycle. 

People recommend the 416 because back when they were starting out thirty years ago the 416 was the best choice. 
Then other people recommend the 416 because the 416 was recommend by yet other people to themselves beforehand. 

And so the circle of life carries on, and the 416 gets recommended for another year after another year. 

 

 

So, we that we like using it, and we choose to buy it instead of other, cheaper microphones, we are wrong?

 

Thanks for letting us know!

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Guys and Gals....  The reason WHY that 416 is, has been and will continue to be viewed as a "GOOD" mic is because...

 

IT WORKS!!

IT can be used as a hammer!!

IT is punchy!! 

Great Exterior mic "especially on grass.."

No moisture, or fragility issues I know of.

Sounds good!!  (Thats subjective)  Actually all of this is...

 

If all else fails, that mic will work.... That feeling is worth the price....even if I always use my CS3e...

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8 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

So, we that we like using it, and we choose to buy it instead of other, cheaper microphones, we are wrong?

 

No one is telling anyone they're wrong. But I must admit that the 416 does add some coloration to the talent, at least to my ears. Hard to describe, but it's like a growl - like the lows are a little aggressive. Also sounds better on male voices than female voices when I used it. It's still a highly capable mic - all the ones in this price point are, but I prefer something a little more neutral sounding. I was told microphones are like golf clubs - there's one that's perfect for every situation. 

 

As much as I hate spending the extra money, I think I will rent the Schoeps CMC6/MK41, the Sanken CS3e and some COS-11Ds.

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I don’t ever go out on a job without the 416. Even if I don’t use it, I know that I can get the job done if all else fails. 

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Not the prettiest or the best (at everything - what is?) but *probably more hours of picture sound recorded with a 416 than all the others put together. Significantly for someone wanting better or different, it is a good bench mark from which to judge the others and to back them up when the need comes. 

*hyperbole,  but 416 is like the AK47 of mics and therefore can be found used (by another pro) for good prices.

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9 hours ago, afewmoreyears said:

....even if I always use my CS3e...


And this is exactly my point!

If you're always using a CS3e, why be recommending something else? Worthwhile pondering that for an extra moment. 

I'm not saying a 416 is a bad mic. Not at all!!

Just that the 416 is in an awkward position (squeezed in by attractive options above and below it, and alongside it) in the current market now in 2019 if you either considering buying one new or secondhand. It will still make sense to some people to buy, but I'd suggest for many people it wouldn't. 

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48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:


If you're always using a CS3e, why be recommending something else? Worthwhile pondering that for an extra moment. 
 

And by a similar logic, worth pondering why someone who has a CS3e (and probably many more mics than you and I put together) would still be suggesting a 416 is a good place to start.

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4 minutes ago, daniel said:

And by a similar logic, worth pondering why someone who has a CS3e (and probably many more mics than you and I put together) would still be suggesting a 416 is a good place to start.

 

CS3e is not as bulletproof as the 416 is, par example.

 

Trying to squeeze decades of experience in sound on a few posts is really difficult. Just go out there and make your own statements later on. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Kisaha said:

 

CS3e is not as bulletproof as the 416 is, par example.

 

Trying to squeeze decades of experience in sound on a few posts is really difficult. Just go out there and make your own statements later on. 

 

 

Exactly. Reliability is always important, especially when starting out. New to sound, unlikely to have lots of other options to fall back on so what you have got, has got to work. For me having something so dependable in the bag made it easier to explore other options, whether they were cheaper (oktava) or more niche (CS3e, MKH50, DPA etc). It'll keep your face clean.

 

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:


And this is exactly my point!

If you're always using a CS3e, why be recommending something else? Worthwhile pondering that for an extra moment. 

I'm not saying a 416 is a bad mic. Not at all!!

Just that the 416 is in an awkward position (squeezed in by attractive options above and below it, and alongside it) in the current market now in 2019 if you either considering buying one new or secondhand. It will still make sense to some people to buy, but I'd suggest for many people it wouldn't. 

Because you don't own just one mic....   Just one Lav type, just one boom pole, just one TC Slate...  You have multiples for obvious reasons..

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This issue of gear selection for a new player is about more than just the best tool for each function. As Phil Perkins (and others) pointed out, no one really cares or notices what components make up a sound kit so long as it seems to be organized and capable. This is true most of the time; producers mostly don’t know the advantages of one product over another and their eyes glaze over when the subject comes up. 

 

But there is an exception to that situation. If something were to go awry, it’s best to be working with gear generally recognized as an industry standard. Employers who never give a thought to what sort of microphone is being used can suddenly take a keen interest if it begins buzzing and causes even a momentary production delay. Whenever things go bad, it’s best to be working with recognized standards. That won’t make unwelcome scrutiny go away but use of less recognized gear provides an opening for criticism. 

 

This is is not an issue for an established pro; Mark Ulano could use microphones from Fisher-Price and everyone would assume he was going for an effect. But new players would be well advised to not stray far from the expected pro gear. 

 

David

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On 6/20/2019 at 10:40 AM, David Waelder said:

This issue of gear selection for a new player is about more than just the best tool for each function. As Phil Perkins (and others) pointed out, no one really cares or notices what components make up a sound kit so long as it seems to be organized and capable. This is true most of the time; producers mostly don’t know the advantages of one product over another and their eyes glaze over when the subject comes up. 

 

But there is an exception to that situation. If something were to go awry, it’s best to be working with gear generally recognized as an industry standard. Employers who never give a thought to what sort of microphone is being used can suddenly take a keen interest if it begins buzzing and causes even a momentary production delay. Whenever things go bad, it’s best to be working with recognized standards. That won’t make unwelcome scrutiny go away but use of less recognized gear provides an opening for criticism. 

 

This is is not an issue for an established pro; Mark Ulano could use microphones from Fisher-Price and everyone would assume he was going for an effect. But new players would be well advised to not stray far from the expected pro gear. 

 

David

 

This actually brings up another good point: maybe the best decision gear wise at the moment would be to start with mics that are the most reliable rather than the absolute best sounding. So maybe a MKH 416 + MKH 50 with COS-11D lavs. From what I've read, those seem to be the most reliable in various conditions, from EMF or RF interference to humidity. They're also reasonably affordable. 

 

I've heard stories of EMF interference with the CS3e, and stories of problems with the Schopes (or technically any pressure gradient mic) in humid conditions. 

 

Does this sound like a valid approach? I really would like a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 if nothing else, but is it really that sensitive to humidity? I've heard both that it is and that this is a myth. 

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13 minutes ago, soundbeard said:

Does this sound like a valid approach?

 

sure sounds to me. what does it sound like to you?

 

13 minutes ago, soundbeard said:

I really would like a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 if nothing else, but is it really that sensitive to humidity? I've heard both that it is and that this is a myth. 

 

well it seems that for some people it *is* sensitive while for other it isn't.

so if you buy one, chances is that you'll never have problems, or that you'll have problems. 

pretty much true for any technical device I guess, only the percentages of those who have trouble vs those who don't will change for different models.

chris

 

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14 hours ago, soundbeard said:

I've heard stories of EMF interference with the CS3e, and stories of problems with the Schopes (or technically any pressure gradient mic) in humid conditions. 

 

So you’re saying that a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 has more issues with humidity than a CMC6/MK2?

 

The only actual issue that I am aware of with modular mics is that when changing capsules dirt can get in between capsule and body. This then either attracts moisture or causes issues all by itself. Since the Schoeps Colette series is modular, maybe this is the root of the Schoeps/Humidity thing. 

 

I think a 416 is a good last resort backup. For me personally it really is just that. My regular backup is a duplicate of the main mic.

If what you really want is a Schoeps, why do you consider the MKH50?

 

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4 hours ago, Constantin said:

So you’re saying that a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 has more issues with humidity than a CMC6/MK2?  <snip- refer back to post>

 

What Constantin is pointing out here is that there is no connection whatsoever with hypers / pressure gradient mics and humidity: I can only assume one is mixed up with 'proximity effect' for which there is a link.

 

On 20 June 2019 at 5:24 AM, Philip Perkins said:

Anyone who does this work for a long time will one day have their ass saved by a 416.  It is the cockroach of shotguns.

 

Phil, did you not write a telegram to the same effect in 1968 about the 805?

(Hey, sorry - I couldn't stop myself! It's late on a Friday night here ...)

 

Best, Jez

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I think @Philip Perkins and @David Waelder are correct in stating the most obvious, that established reliable gear that sounds good is the best place to start. Is Schoeps more susceptible to humidity? Maybe. But anyone can tell you that the more fancy the mic, the more delicate it is. I’ve done movies with nothing but a 416, watched it in theatres, and thought “yeah that sounds like a motion picture!”. I’ve also gone to movies with heavy lav use and noticed nothing but the pitfalls of relying on them. 

 

The point is that in my my honest opinion, anybody going into the field without a 416 may in fact be a fool. They have saved my socks a number of times. Do I reach for a 416 on every occasion? No. I like Schoeps better. But there was a time when I was perfectly content with a properly yielded 416, and had no aspirations to buy another mic (sauf a second 416)!

 

These days I have many many many mics. They are my paintbrushes. But regardless of what I choose for the days project, the 416 always remains in my kit. It actually sees a lot of action, since a lot of the ENG work I do doesn’t merit the cmit, and I’d rather bring out something bullet proof than something I have to worry about. 

I’d also like to point out that regardless of what you use, Post is going to EQ it all to sound similar, so this argument is mostly for our own taste in things. But reliability is going to do more for someone just starting out than fancy gear. 

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6 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Phil, did you not write a telegram to the same effect in 1968 about the 805?

(Hey, sorry - I couldn't stop myself! It's late on a Friday night here ...)

 

haha, golden comment!

And is a Saturday night here 😉

IIm from the future! Having a cider. 

 

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