Playback in the day...

[old school]

   For the first 15 years of my sound career, whenever we had to do playback in a scene it was done with a Nagra 4.2., and a speaker system. The tracks were set up in the same way we do it today with 3 or 4 pops, then whatever the recording followed the beeps... The trick was to play and rewind this ribbon of sound from start to finish and points in between, then back again, many many time in the course of the shooting day. Most of us got good at it or at least able to do it. There were tricks to doing this, like using splicing blocks and tape to mark stops, stops, and points within. All of this was time consuming to set up and the re/set for playback was as well.... Sometimes we even had to splice 1/4 in tape on the set!!!  When it was all said and done, the hardest aspect to doing playback was using the pinch wheel of the Nagra to start the playback so it wouldn't 'wow'. (Come up to speed with a pitch change)... The hard part was pinching the wheel until they said "playback". Those of us who did this know what I mean....

   The reason I bring this up is that this year I have had more playback jobs than normal, (Whatever that may be). Lot's of animatronic and or old school puppets these days. In the last 6 months I have done 4 or 5 major P.B. jobs... Now I am on 8 day gig for a big time tennis shoe commercial that has mostly playback and re/recording that are the sound requirements of the gig. For the last 4 years I have been doing Playback with ProTools and the MBox. I can't imagine doing it the old way for todays requirements. It is a bit crazy these days, but I enjoy the challenge and break of the usual day to day. To see the Wave Form on a timeline and the ability to edit, mark, loop, etc... for Playback is MindBlowing as we used to say. I love playback for film n commercials. Not so much for the old school rock videos, or new school Hip/2 da/rap/2da/metal/speed whatever Videos.... But for the film scenes I do like doing it with these new tools. What do you think.

   I would love to hear old and new school Playback jobs done well or gone to Hell...

CrewC

[Malcolm Davies Amps CAS]

Ah happy days!

I like to think that no-one could do playback on a Nagra as good as myself and like old School to go out without  the splicing block and different coloured leader was unthinkable.

All this changed  many years later after a discussion with Billy Sarokin who at the time seemed to be at the cutting edge with a computer with a touch screen and a copy of Adobe Audition.

On the occasions when we have to provide playback this is the system that I and a couple of other mixers here in the UK still use.

Its made life a lot easier but there was something very reassuring when you let go of the Nagra pinchwheel and you know that the music is there.

Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s.

[Roger Slater]

Except for the time in Norway, with a singer miming to camera, as the second of two trains a day passed in the back of shot, I let go the pinch wheel of the Nagra, not having noticed that the little fast forward switch had been knocked to the right.......The Director as I recall, took his hat and gloves off, threw them down in the snow and jumped up and down on them. I had to buy a lot of drinks in the bar that night....

Roger

[larry long]

Grease pencil....

Oh I think my thumb still hurts!

[Hollandaudio]

Hey Crew,

  we were emailing each other a few weeks about this.  I like to say my current gig has more music than a Bollywood film; and I've done a bollywood film.

  Pro Tools is indispensable with editing, changes, and loading various songs/effects.  I love having a 'visual' memory location window.

Jonathan

[old school]

Hey Jonathan, I agree w you about ProTools or any other DAW software. Very powerful tool for production sound playback. I just got home from day 5 of 8 in playback Madness. We have multiple playback tracks, 20 plus so far and growing by the day. We may use any of them at any time, from any point in the track. Shifting work flow for playback.

  Today I recorded 5 scripts the 'Creatives' came up w on the spot with the writers reading their work w 2 hand held dynamic mics. This is between set ups of the main scripts we were shooting that I was doing playback for. I imported my new playback tracks into PT's and trimmed them up and pasted in pops and I was ready to go.... This power is what spurred this thread yesterday. I just can't imagine how I would of done this gig in the old days. I guess we would of come up with something.

Jonathan, glad things are working well. Keep up the good work.

CrewC

[roundbadge]

Ah yes..I remember the grease pencils too!

PT and Bias Peak has been indispensable for me

I did a commercial for the Blue Man group a little while back and aside from having a million cue points I also had to do Beat edits for the guys.

actually moving kick/snare hits and feels.

thankfully I've been playing drums since I was 6 and have done loads of PT drum editing on records.

it was fun and they were great to work with[even offered me an audition for BMG!] but woulda never happened like that 10 or more years ago

-Hunter

[roundbadge]

Lol!

Don't even get me started about Pytka

I'm sure we all have our stories.

I do remember some painfully long video shoots in the 80's

[cmgoodin]

Many people don't realize it but one of the things I built BWF-Widget Pro for was for doing playback.  I wanted something that could playback Broadcast Wav files with time code displayed and allow you to drop marks in the file and jump to them.  Most of our File based recorders don't do well with cuing and marks or loops for playback.  I wanted something cheap enough to use for playback and would run on my PC laptop.  I didn't find anything other than Pro-Tools or Nuendo that supported TC and those cost over $1000 for the TC enabled versions.  I typically use BWF-Widget Pro to playback on the set.  It allows instant countdown beeps,  TC display with pre-roll, instant Re-Cue,  Cue to Cue playback for firing off lines of dialogue for puppets, and quick .1% PULL UP.  You can save all your cues and even print out a report for post with a list of the cue-points.  All of this without altering the actual track.  I even put in the ability to use an RF Wireless presentation controller (Like those used for power-point presentations) so you can remotely start stop and re-cue the playback even while standing at the Craft service table.  This also comes in handy for puppeteers who want to trigger their own playback lines when that comic timing is crucial.

Of course you don't have the ability to actually edit the tracks, but I usually don't like to do that anyway because you risk loosing the integrity of the original track timing.  I just hook up an external Mixer & Speaker/amp to the Headphone output on my laptop and an external LCD monitor to the S-video output to use as a TC slate.  It sure beats ruining your thumb and Index finger pinching that Pinch roller on the Nagra while the DP makes that one last adjustment to the lighting or the Hair person tries to arrange those pesky "fly-aways" while you wait for the AD to yell "PLAYBACK"

-------Courtney

[Jeff Wexler]

Many people don't realize it but one of the things I built BWF-Widget Pro for was for doing playback.  I wanted something that could playback Broadcast Wav files with time code displayed and allow you to drop marks in the file and jump to them.   Most of our File based recorders don't do well with cuing and marks or loops for playback.  I wanted something cheap enough to use for playback and would run on my PC laptop.

-------Courtney

I think BWF-Widget Pro capabilities for playback purposes is great. It is sort of like the Boomrecorder for playback (instead of recording) --- by that I mean specialized purpose built for a specific task: sync playback with timecode, cue marks and so forth. Thankfully, not full blown editing software like ProTools, etc. I can see the advantage that it uses broadcast wave files since we will always be able to "record" the playback tracks, however they are given to us, into our recorders and then use BWF-Widget to do the playback.

Now, after singing the praises of BWF-Widget Pro (software that I actually have never personally used) when will these features be incorporated into Wave Agent? You all know where I'm headed --- BWF-Widget is still PC only which diminishes a lot of my enthusiasm for the program.

Courtney, Jon T ??

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[MrDigitaL]

Many people don't realize it but one of the things I built BWF-Widget Pro for was for doing playback.  I wanted something that could playback Broadcast Wav files with time code displayed and allow you to drop marks in the file and jump to them.   Most of our File based recorders don't do well with cuing and marks or loops for playback.  I wanted something cheap enough to use for playback and would run on my PC laptop.  I didn't find anything other than Pro-Tools or Nuendo that supported TC and those cost over $1000 for the TC enabled versions.   I typically use BWF-Widget Pro to playback on the set.  It allows instant countdown beeps,  TC display with pre-roll, instant Re-Cue,  Cue to Cue playback for firing off lines of dialogue for puppets, and quick .1% PULL UP.  You can save all your cues and even print out a report for post with a list of the cue-points.  All of this without altering the actual track.  I even put in the ability to use an RF Wireless presentation controller (Like those used for power-point presentations) so you can remotely start stop and re-cue the playback even while standing at the Craft service table.  This also comes in handy for puppeteers who want to trigger their own playback lines when that comic timing is crucial.

I  think this is what i've been looking for.

I don't need protools but i needed a program to let me add sync beeps and time code.

[old school]

Hey Courtney, I didn't know that about your widget. Sounds cool as well as useful. Like Jeff said, too bad it doesn't yet work on my Mac G4 1.67. When I upgrade to the intel mac someday soon hopefully, I will get  windows and give it a try.

 RVD, great old story. I can hear Joe saying it, but after 20 years of working for him, I hear his voice saying a lot of B.S.... Good lesson learned. I know most of us old guys started Playback in fast forward a time or two.

CrewC

[Hollandaudio]

  Today I recorded 5 scripts the 'Creatives' came up w on the spot with the writers reading their work w 2 hand held dynamic mics. This is between set ups of the main scripts we were shooting that I was doing playback for. I imported my new playback tracks into PT's and trimmed them up and pasted in pops and I was ready to go.... This power is what spurred this thread yesterday. I just can't imagine how I would of done this gig in the old days. I guess we would of come up with something.

Jonathan, glad things are working well. Keep up the good work.

CrewC

  Thanks.  On spot changes is what Pro Tools is great for.  Also, that's the thing-the creatives know you have the gear or they know someone else has it AND expects changes on the spot.

[Philip Perkins]

Some of my best music video tricks were done with playback from a very early sampler instrument, calculating the change in pitch to the change in framerate of the camera, then entering that value in the Precision Speed Control.  We were able to get people singing in sync in both slow motion and in a kind of "chatter-cam" undercranked look, and switch very quickly between them.  The look was pretty darn cool.  Later, with stereo samplers, we figured out how to do this w/ TC displayed at the correct speed as well, so to telecine it all worked like a normal take.  This is all doable now in freeware (Audacity) if you want.

Philip Perkins

[Philip Perkins]

It's always great to look back and see where we came from and how it's all evolved to today's technology, makes me feel old, shit I am old.

I once had a job with the director Joe Pytka, this was very early in his career, he was a staff director working out of STF or Sandler Tape and Film.  This shows Joe's roots as well as mine, the commercial was for a toaster oven.  It was basically a one shot commercial with the camera starting tight on the toaster oven and pulling back over a counter top revealing all of the delicious food you could cook in this amazing toaster oven.  All morning we waited while the home economists prepared the various dishes to be used in the shot.  Finally Joe decided he wanted to rehearse with the playback track, which was a voice over, for timing.  The camera was on a dolly with an off set to get the camera over the tabletop.  Joe was operating the camera of course and he put his eye to the eyepiece and called, "Action!"  I rolled the playback only to find out I had left the switch in the fast forward position, I immediately stopped the tape and could see Joe raising up off of the camera and turning to look at me.  I said, "I'm very sorry, I've re-cued and I'm ready to go.  It won't happen again."  Joe was just staring at me and finally said, "Well, roll it..."  I said, "Don't you want to do it with the camera?"  Joe replied, "No, because we all know what we're doing and you've just showed us all that you don't know what you're doing.  So roll that thing and show us you really do know how to operate it, or I'll go get a monkey off the street to do it, because that's the easiest fucking piece of equipment we have here today."  I rolled the playback, at the proper speed.

After that experience I developed a habit of always checking that the rewind/fast forward switch was the last thing I touched before turning on the machine.

I also was around during the first days of music videos, $300.00 flat for 24 hours work and $300.00 for your equipment.  Those were the days.  It's certainly much easier now, I feel, than it was back then.

I could go on, but I'd just be wrong.

RVD

Has anyone ever figured out why he is so "unpleasant"?  Nowadays he's kind of like a cartoon of himself, but back then he was still just a talented guy with a sharp tongue.

Philip Perkins

[old school]

If you were as ugly as Joe you would be 'unpleasant', as well.

CrewC

[roundbadge]

If you were as ugly as Joe you would be 'unpleasant', as well.

CrewC

lol.

I remember once he walked on set unknowing I was filling in and he looked at me and said:"WHERE THE HELL IS MO AND WHO THE F*** ARE YOU?!

[Jeff Wexler]

Most films I've done with music have required a Pro Tools operator to be employed, so why not have it be your third person that does it.

Cheers,

RVD

I agree that learning ProTools is probably pretty essential, for all of us, but on a feature film that requires ProTools playback In would not want the Utility person doing it. The Utility person being proficient in ProTools playback, and of course all the skills necessary to do a proper playback job, is a good idea, so that the Utility person could possibly get a job doing that. On a movie of sufficient scope to need major ProTools playback, I always try and get a Playback Operator in addition to the Utility person.

-  Jeff Wexler

[old school]

   RVD, another great story. I did many Bartels n Jaymes commercials as well. They were what got me to move up to mixing. Going up to Santa Rosa every weekend w Joe n Austin mixing those spots were taxing to say the least, but they reintroduced me back to mixing and to my surprise I enjoyed that end of the cable. Your analogy of Joe as that type of Coach is bang on. He never bothered me much, but he sure could get into the heads of many. I'm glad you are taking the time to learn Pro Tools. If I can learn it anyone can. A smart guy like you, it will be a snap. I love what I do with it in regards to music recording and producing. Very powerful tool. After you get the hang of PT, try Final Cut Pro. Both are great brain food. Beats watching TV. Might be the start of a new career.

   Hey Jeff, the job I am doing the mad playback on, I am doing as a Playback guy. This is the best way to work this gig. Garry Gossett is the Mixer. Both Gary n I have done shoots this tough without a playback guy, but this is the right way.

   Hunter, that is funny. You are not the 1st or last to hear that line I am afraid. Moe moved up to mixing in 96 and I handed off that account to him in 98. Best thing big brother ever did for both of us.

CrewC

   BTW, today I am recording 2 Disney Kids on a green screen stage. So much easier to relax and just record.

[Philip Perkins]

Wow, I'm glad Crew and Hunter clarified that for me, I thought you were talking about me Phillip! 

That was just my first experience with Joe, and at the time I passed it off as akin to a football coach that degrades you into forcing you to "rise up" to that next level of performance.  Personally, I never liked that approach from either my coaches or from Joe.

Another time I was doing a Bartel's and Jaymes wine cooler spot with him, two locations and ending up in Santa Clara Airport to do some air to air shots with dialogue.  Of course I had never talked to Joe in regard as to how we would get sound in the air to air.  So after a morning full of Joe berating the on camera talent, the poor guy only had to read off of a sheet of 4x8 foam cord with all of his lines on them, but the insane pressure of Joe yelling at him was too much for the poor guy.

I had rigged the "talent" plane with a Nagra SN recorder and was ready to go.  After lunch Joe jumps into the "camera" plane and turns to me and says, "Whatcha gonna do now hotshot?"  I smiled and told him we were already to go and we were rolling, blank stare from Joe.

In regard to Courtney's BWF Widget this is a great program, I used it on a film I did a couple of years ago, I had an actor that liked to ad lib and so cueing was very tricky, and Courtney's program made it very easy.  Unfortunately, when my hard drive crashed in that laptop I was unable to retrieve the program.

I've signed up for the Pro Tools classes through our local and am looking forward to receiving that training.  As I do believe that people do kind of expect Pro Tools, name brand recognition and all.  I also suggest to all of the sound utility folks that this is a great way to gain some additional money.  Owning a P.A. system and a Pro Tools playback rig is relatively inexpensive.

Most films I've done with music have required a Pro Tools operator to be employed, so why not have it be your third person that does it.

I also keep a little Sony mini disc player/recorder on my sound cart, this is a great little tool for doing simple playback jobs.  Small compact and easy to cue from and make marks. 

I do hope you were talking about Joe, Philip?

Cheers,

RVD

Well, yes I was.  I don't know you Mr RVD, but doubt that you could possibly be as "famously unpleasant" as Mr. P

and have stayed an employed sound mixer all these years.  Sorry for any confusion.

Philip Perkins

[MrDigitaL]

Thanks for hi-jacking my thread...(just kidding) you guys are a wealth of knowledge..Thank you Jeff for such a great site.

I started off working in a recording studio 24 track analogue with a great sounding 1/2 inch studer 2 track so i have plenty of splicing stories...and some pretty cool flange stories...

I have had my own CD DVD duplication business for the last 15 years and times are slowing down.

I've been working with a great video director and editor and they have been letting me do playback on music videos.

Most of the videos we have not used time code on. The only one we did i had to get somebody to burn me a CD with time code.

Here's my questions to you very helpful guys.

What software can i use to put a count off and time code on the CD with.

Any tips or tricks you guys want to share?

I am really enjoying this type of work.

Thanks for all your help

Mike

[tourtelot]

I recall a rubber band trick for the FF switch but I can't for the life of me picture the exact rig.  And you KNOW that I have no Nagra to look at here<g>.

Pitka yelled at me once about how long it took for me to roll.  It was soon after DAT machines came on the scene and I stood up and yelled back that I had been rolling for the last 20 minutes and he NEVER had to wait for me.  He picked on someone else for the rest of the day.  Bolla Wines IIRC.  Remember them?

D.

[Philip Perkins]

I have to say that I swore off playback-only jobs, esp. music videos, many years ago after long run of really bad jobs, mostly music videos, mostly rap and hip-hop.  I'm happy to do playback as part of a larger job that entails recording, but no more playback only.  On those jobs it seemed like you only got noticed if you screwed up, the demands for PA systems of truly stupid power levels kept increasing, the money kept dropping and the prod. companies became less honest with every gig.  On one of the last ones (of a long run) I did the director looked at our decent for the time and quickly moveable PA and immediately declared us to be idiots (a la Joe) and demanded we get a concert-level PA system to the set right away.  The set was across the street from some of the most expensive and exclusive apartment blocks in SF, and we were, of course, planning to shoot all night.  No amount of reason from the producer, the PM and me moved the director.  I had some buddies who could deliver the real deal (for a price)--I told the producer that he could not pay for my PA if I put it back in the truck now and I told my friends who owned the PA to charge them whatever they wanted.  The PA showed up, the director told me to roll playback and crank it.  2 bars into the song I got a tap on the shoulder, turned and found a policeman behind me telling me to turn the PA down.  I did.  The director came out, swearing.  The producer came over.  I introduced the producer to the cop.  The cop leaves.  The director orders another playback, full bore.  2nd chorus--two cop cars pull up to the set, lights flashing.  The same cop as before walks up to the producer and tells him that if he plays that track at anywhere close to that level again that he's going to jail.  We spend the rest of the night playing the track back at boom-box levels with a PA system big enough to do a Metallica concert.  Did I mention that it rained all night too?  And that they cheated us on our OT?

Philip Perkins

[MrDigitaL]

Great story Philip.

I have noticed how some producers like to make things miserable for no reason.

I guess they think they have to to keep their job.

I was on my first music video shoot and it seemed like it was taking forever for lighting.

My good friend was doing the audio, i was a PA for the shoot. I went over to him and started acting like i was yelling at him.

We were actually talking about the hockey game the night before...It was pretty funny. The out of town crew thought is was great watching the local guys get angry at each other, in reality we were just trying to break the boredom of the down time.

It seems like the bigger the crew the more issues that goes with the job.

[old school]

"Here's my questions to you very helpful guys.

What software can i use to put a count off and time code on the CD with.

Any tips or tricks you guys want to share?

I am really enjoying this type of work.

Thanks for all your help"

Hey Mr Digital, Courtneys widget will allow you to do that I would guess. So would most DAW software. The Playback work can be fun but the factors are not in favor of that if you do too many IMO. BTW, have you posted a 'Who I am today'? You sound as if you have a great backstory. If you have, I am sorry. Been a long week.

CrewC