Do You Acoustically Treat Rooms?

[Matt]

I have been doing a lot of interviews lately, and would always prefer to use the boom.  However, most of the rooms are pretty small spaces and have a lot of weird reflections.  I find that the camera guys I work with don't want to see the lavs.  In the worst situations, the lavs are not sounding good (talent is wearing polyester with lots of chest hair) and the room is very reflective. 

As I have pondered this, I have often thought about some sort of portable sound-proofing to help with the room to deaden it a bit.  I was wondering how, if ever, the folks in this group deal with this.  I've met guys who never treat any room with anything and just go with the acoustics, but for TV interviews, this can sound terrible to my ear.  Too echo-ey.  I've tried a sound blanket or 2, but they don't seem to really do much.

I've also tried using a wider pickup pattern, but find this doesn't work out, because I am usually in such a bad location with traffic noise on the street outside, people in the next room, etc.

-Matt 

[Eric Toline]

I find it somewhat amazing that people are still wearing polyester.

Eric

[Matt]

Eric,

Well, I was actually just joking.  But silk is a real BITCH too!

-Matt

[Philip Perkins]

Furniture pads?  Preferably white/black or something neutral, ie not a color.  Some push-pins, a few A-clamps, maybe some extra stands--they can really help deaden a room fairly quickly. 

Philip Perkins

[old school]

Hey Matt, most rooms sound bad even with a good mic in your head phones. What does it sound like on playback? Sometimes a little room is better than no room. Just asking.

CrewC

BTW, Eric is a funny man. That was a good one IMO.

[Kevin Sorensen]

If you can , try putting a furniture pad(s) on the ceiling. This can work wonders.

KKS

[Philip Perkins]

Hey Matt, most rooms sound bad even with a good mic in your head phones. What does it sound like on playback? Sometimes a little room is better than no room. Just asking.

CrewC

BTW, Eric is a funny man. That was a good one IMO.

Wait--this is a really good point.  What can sound overly wet in your headphones can actually sound nice and alive on speakers--while (as a post production mixer) I might be tempted to ADD reverb to a scene or interview that sounded uncomfortably dead.  Remember--people don't watch TV or movies with headphones on....  This isn't to say that you shouldn't try to calm down a room that sounded strange due to odd reflections etc, but that the goal isn't to make it sound like a VO booth either (you knew that...).

Philip Perkins

[RPSharman]

Good point, Philip.  I hate it when a room sounds too dead.  Sounds weird.  I'll loosen up sometimes to have a more natural feel in an interview as well as on a narrative set.

Regarding a very "live" room for interviews...I recorded some interviews in a poorly insulated, 15' x 40', wooden floored, Zen center just off a very busy street in Los Angeles.  It sounded a little bit "live" in the headphones, but I liked the sound of the room to my ear.  The recording sounded great played back.

Robert

[Joe Finlan]

I have been doing a lot of interviews lately, and would always prefer to use the boom.  However, most of the rooms are pretty small spaces and have a lot of weird reflections.  I find that the camera guys I work with don't want to see the lavs.  In the worst situations, the lavs are not sounding good (talent is wearing polyester with lots of chest hair) and the room is very reflective. 

As I have pondered this, I have often thought about some sort of portable sound-proofing to help with the room to deaden it a bit.  I was wondering how, if ever, the folks in this group deal with this.  I've met guys who never treat any room with anything and just go with the acoustics, but for TV interviews, this can sound terrible to my ear.  Too echo-ey.  I've tried a sound blanket or 2, but they don't seem to really do much.

I've also tried using a wider pickup pattern, but find this doesn't work out, because I am usually in such a bad location with traffic noise on the street outside, people in the next room, etc.

-Matt 

You say you prefer to use the boom but don't mention what type mic you have on the end of it. In a small live room a hypercardioid would be the answer. A cardioid is too wide and will sound too "roomy" and a short shotgun, by the nature of it being an interference tube design, will always sound somewhat "weird" due to the phase cancellations taking place. Even a lav at the 3rd button will tend to pick up more of the room than a hyper cap at 12" - 18".  You will still hear the room but the ratio of direct to indirect will be better.

[Danijel Milosevic]

Worst thing about small rooms are room nodes at fundamental voice frequencies like 120Hz or 200Hz. And there is nothing one can do about those without bass traps which would take up two assistants to carry around.....

[Philip Perkins]

Worst thing about small rooms are room nodes at fundamental voice frequencies like 120Hz or 200Hz. And there is nothing one can do about those without bass traps which would take up two assistants to carry around.....

Well, in production with the mic at a normal working distance ( a few feet at least) we start rolling off @ around 100, and in post sometimes even higher, esp for women's voices.  Often those low-freq. nodes are somewhat broken up by the presence of people, lighting equipts etc as well.  Where I hear problems more commonly is in the 400-500 range, which tends to make things muddy.  Furni pads can help with that somewhat, as does a more directional mic.

Philip Perkins

[Matt]

To reply to your replies with more questions:

Thanks for the clarification on the type of microphone being used.  I have used a shotgun and a hypercardioid, as well as the Sennheiser 8040 (considered by some to sound more like the Schoeps hyper than the 8050).  To my ear, the 8040 is pretty useless unless it is a very dead room and the mic is about 5 inches from the top of the talent's head.  On one job, I had the 8040 and switched to a shotgun in a reflective room, and it sounded better.  This went against everything I had always heard about a hyper being used indoors.  Maybe I'll give the MKH50 another shot.  I had meant to bring this up in the initial question, but forgot.  I'd like to hear the group's experience with this.

Secondly, how do you get the furni-pad on the ceiling?  Sounds like a lot of C-stands.  Or do you just put one over the talent?  How far from the wall or ceiling do you tend to put it?  Against the wall or a foot or so out from it?  I've heard that there is a difference between true "sound blankets" and furni-pads.  Any thoughts on this?

The headphones vs. playback question is another biggie.  How much is too much room?  I've struggled with this my whole career.  I know this is a "feel" thing, but any pointers? 

I recently switched to Ultrasone headphones because the MDR-7506's were overly bright and brittle and seemed to sound more reverby than playback.  The Ultrasones seem more even and seem to match playback better (and won't cause me to lose my hearing at 40).  I worry about how much reverb in the room is too much.  Everything on TV sounds SUPER dry and dead to my ear (especially commercials).  I've seen interviews on TV that sounded terrible because it was so reverby.  The close-miked lav sound that we are accustomed to seeing on interview shows kind of sets the standard in my mind. 

Finally, do any of you monitor low enough that the reverb almost disappears in the headphones to get a perspective on playback? 

On the issue of playback, I rarely, if ever, get a chance to do playback on interviews and commercials.  95% of my work is going straight to camera.  I have noticed, when I get playback, that a lot of room sound is actually just bleed around my headphones while I'm recording that disappears in playback.  So, I certainly get you on that point.  Probably just being too anal.  But, that's what I'm paid for, right?

Thanks for all the good comments.  I look forward to more.

-Matt

[Philip Perkins]

To reply to your replies with more questions:

Thanks for the clarification on the type of microphone being used.  I have used a shotgun and a hypercardioid, as well as the Sennheiser 8040 (considered by some to sound more like the Schoeps hyper than the 8050).  To my ear, the 8040 is pretty useless unless it is a very dead room and the mic is about 5 inches from the top of the talent's head.  On one job, I had the 8040 and switched to a shotgun in a reflective room, and it sounded better.  This went against everything I had always heard about a hyper being used indoors.  Maybe I'll give the MKH50 another shot.  I had meant to bring this up in the initial question, but forgot.  I'd like to hear the group's experience with this.

Secondly, how do you get the furni-pad on the ceiling?  Sounds like a lot of C-stands.  Or do you just put one over the talent?  How far from the wall or ceiling do you tend to put it?  Against the wall or a foot or so out from it?  I've heard that there is a difference between true "sound blankets" and furni-pads.  Any thoughts on this?

The headphones vs. playback question is another biggie.  How much is too much room?  I've struggled with this my whole career.  I know this is a "feel" thing, but any pointers? 

I recently switched to Ultrasone headphones because the MDR-7506's were overly bright and brittle and seemed to sound more reverby than playback.  The Ultrasones seem more even and seem to match playback better (and won't cause me to lose my hearing at 40).  I worry about how much reverb in the room is too much.  Everything on TV sounds SUPER dry and dead to my ear (especially commercials).  I've seen interviews on TV that sounded terrible because it was so reverby.  The close-miked lav sound that we are accustomed to seeing on interview shows kind of sets the standard in my mind. 

Finally, do any of you monitor low enough that the reverb almost disappears in the headphones to get a perspective on playback? 

On the issue of playback, I rarely, if ever, get a chance to do playback on interviews and commercials.  95% of my work is going straight to camera.  I have noticed, when I get playback, that a lot of room sound is actually just bleed around my headphones while I'm recording that disappears in playback.  So, I certainly get you on that point.  Probably just being too anal.  But, that's what I'm paid for, right?

Thanks for all the good comments.  I look forward to more.

-Matt

You get the furni pad on the ceiling via push pins or stands.  We didn't say it was easy....  Another trick is to get a (friendly) grip dept. to help you with a 6 x 6 or 12 x 12 black or grif overhead on stands.  If you can let them know that you might need this before the job they might be more accommodating.  All the "sound blankets" I've ever had or used were the same as furniture pads, the only difference was that they were either black on both sides or white/black, which makes them more useful near talent.  Re: headphones--thats a personal choice--there is no right answer for everyone.  It is important to pick one and stick with it so you "learn" what they are really telling you.  Re: playback, this is another good reason to run a recorder of your own all the time.  Besides backup and the ability to run off and do wild sound/lines w/ the camera, it allows you to listen back to what you've done and learn from it.

Philip Perkins

[John Blankenship]

Hang furnie pads out from the walls at least three or four feet, if possible.  They will then act as a modified broadband absorber.  If you hang them up against the walls, they will only dampen the highs and serve to dull the sound without absorbing any of the more offensive reflected lower mids that muddy the sound.

John B.

[stacysound]

Try different mics. You never know for sure what mic works best in what room. Not to start a take down with Joe :-) but more times than not, a Schoeps MK41 is my best bet in a live room. The tube shotguns sometimes sound "weird" as someone else stated. But by no means is this always the case. Put up a couple and try them. Also, I will never use a lav if I can get a nice cardioid mic 12" over an actor.

I've basically given up on treating a room with blankets, just because of the potential lighting restrictions / hassle factor. If it's a fixed spot, sure. If I'm on a show, no. I'm getting older too ;-)

[studiomprd]

" Probably just being too anal.  But, that's what I'm paid for, "

what kind of interviews are you doing??

and how much are you being paid??

are the clients complaining??

interviews, on location, are just that: interviews on location! 

[Joe Finlan]

Try different mics. You never know for sure what mic works best in what room. Not to start a take down with Joe :-) but more times than not, a Schoeps MK41 is my best bet in a live room. The tube shotguns sometimes sound "weird" as someone else stated. But by no means is this always the case. Put up a couple and try them. Also, I will never use a lav if I can get a nice cardioid mic 12" over an actor.

You'll get no disagreement from me, Stacey. I agree with all you've said. The MK41 is a supercardioid and as such is just a bit wider than a hyper. Both do very well in controlling off-axis reflections in live rooms. And while I don't personally own an MK41, (I do have a CMIT5) every time I've had the pleasure of listening to one it's off-axis linearity gives my ears a woody. I, too always use a mic for interview situations. I will put a lav on to satisfy the neurotic producer but I have yet to hear a lav sound as good as the mic when I A/B them.

Like RVD I started out in a recording studio, eventually moved into post work and finally into location work. I agree whole heartedly with his assessment of needing to record the acoustics of the space the voice is in. We're not recording voice overs in a dead v/o booth, we're recording a voice in an environment. My post experience has taught me that you do lose quite a bit of the ambience you hear in your phones when played over speakers and I have always found that a voice recorded with a mic and with some "air" around it always sat better in a mix than a lav track.

[jamieg]

The only time that I've treated a room acoustically was on a film called Mean Machine (a british remake of The Longest Yard) - a scene where Vinnie Jones' character is walked down a long prison corridor before being stopped in a small atrium and talked to by some guards - the atrium where the dialogue took place was kind of echo-y and reflective, so over lunch the boom op and I taped the foam from inside the peli-cases up above the kino banks that would light the scene, and deadened it off. It worked quite well.