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Cart Power Possibility


graham

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I've outgrown my powerstation and and cant justify a meon or powermax right now. I also dont have the time or skill to craft anything so elegant as Phil(beautiful distro box from another thread). Peter at Gotham recommended i take a look at the Super Powergate

http://www.westmountainradio.com/SuperPWRgate.htm

It provides power from either a power supply or battery(switches to battery if there is a kickout) or can be set up to float a battery. It also has a staged battery charging system built in

The other item i found on their site are their Rigrunner series

http://www.westmountainradio.com/RIGrunner.htm

It seems these would be great to use for distro. each outlet has a user defined fuse(auto fuse easy to replace), blown fuse meter and "rf suppression" (whatever that means) and an array of other features.

The powergate and rigrunner combined are roughly $300. I'd appreciate it if folks that are knowledgeable in this area could check out the links and post their opinions. It would be my first time putting a cart power system together. I just want to make sure this system would at least theoretically work(meaning, i dont know anyone using it to ask their opinion, but if it looks ok on paper...hehe). Many thanks

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I've outgrown my powerstation and and cant justify a meon or powermax right now. I also dont have the time or skill to craft anything so elegant as Phil(beautiful distro box from another thread). Peter at Gotham recommended i take a look at the Super Powergate

http://www.westmountainradio.com/SuperPWRgate.htm

The Super PowerGate unit looks good although there is no way to tell whether the battery charging system is truly noise free for audio use. They claim a seamless and noise free switchover when AC is disconnected but this may not be noise free to the extent that we require.

The Rigrunner series I am not sure why you would want that or why it would be necessary. It seems to be just an overbuilt fuse box that uses what they consider the best DC connectors: "Standardize all of your 12 VDC connections using the amateur radio ARES & RACES, RSGB, ARRL Powerpole® system". These connectors are NOT the standard in our industry and you would have to do something to provide the standard 4-pin XLR connector that is our standard.

-  Jeff Wexler

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" what they consider the best DC connectors: "Standardize all of your 12 VDC connections using the amateur radio ARES & RACES, RSGB, ARRL Powerpole® system". "

as noted, these connectors are not the standard in our market, but they are in the target market of this manufacturer for these products;

but, the requirements of the that target market for quality and noise suppression are as stringent as ours

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How about the new version of the BDS w/ the breakout box (Remote Audio)?

Philip Perkins

The BDS (even the new BDSv3) is intended for bag work, and though it would work in a cart for loads up to 6A is not intended for the cart.

For putting together a power supply system for cart use like Graham is doing, the new Hot Strip for power distribution, and the RM (remote meter) for volts/amps metering and remote on/off control should probably be considered (both begin shipping June 1).

If someone wants to also build their own distribution system instead of using the Hot Strip, then they should consider a new product called the Shunt Box (available July), which is an overload protected switch box that also works with the RM for remote on/off switch and volts/amps metering.

More details will be announced later this week, but preliminary information can be seen here:

http://www.remoteaudio.com/hotstrip/

http://www.remoteaudio.com/remote_meter/

http://www.remoteaudio.com/shunt_box/

Glen Trew

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I bought the Powermax Ultra - you will NOT regret owning one of these (or a MEON, I suppose).  I love never worrying about power.

Having a solid and reliable power system for your cart will eliminate one of the biggest headaches that comes with putting together a cart.

Don't buy twice.  Buy once, and buy right.  You already own a Powerstation, so you must already know the importance of good power.

Robert

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The BDS (even the new BDSv3) is intended for bag work, and though it would work in a cart for loads up to 6A is not intended for the cart.

For putting together a power supply system for cart use like Graham is doing, the new Hot Strip for power distribution, and the RM (remote meter) for volts/amps metering and remote on/off control should probably be considered (both begin shipping June 1).

If someone wants to also build their own distribution system instead of using the Hot Strip, then they should consider a new product called the Shunt Box (available July), which is an overload protected switch box that also works with the RM for remote on/off switch and volts/amps metering.

More details will be announced later this week, but preliminary information can be seen here:

http://www.remoteaudio.com/hotstrip/

http://www.remoteaudio.com/remote_meter/

http://www.remoteaudio.com/shunt_box/

Glen Trew

Sorry--I got my videos mixed up--I meant the Hot Strip deal. 

Philip Perkins

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Hey Guys,

In 2006 I was working with Tom Williams as his Third on the Disney's "Underdog" and we had just come off of six months of episodic tv. We knew we were looking for a more robust powering solution for his cart.  At the time he was running a Galaxy Far outlet, inverters and 12 volt direct.  I had seen the Rigrunners in Ham Catalogs for a few years and thought it might offer some use on a sound cart.  After going through all the specs and actually getting a hand on one of the units,  I knew it was going to be a perfect fit.  The system is great!  It does everything it states it will.  The power is clean, free of any extraneous RF "hash" and seamlessly switches between mains and battery. (Ham gear nowadays is mostly computer driven and only accepts 12v DC, it doesn't tolerate power "hiccups"). The Rigrunner and PWRgate are built like tanks and are relatively cheap.   Here's a list of what‘s in the power system.

12 volt Astron 30 amp switching (yes switching!) power supply

PWRgate 40 amp switch

Rigrunner 4012

Lead Acid Battery

Anderson Powerpole crimper, wire and ends

The above equipment runs:

Deva 5.8

Zaxcom Mix 12

2 Archos Monitors

Xenerarc 10" touch screen

Mac Mini (via 12 volt to 18 volt step-up transformer)

Metric Halo Mobil I/O 2882

Kyocera WiFi router

Cambridge Sound Works Speakers

Because it natively runs 12 volt the system is very efficient and draws less than 7 amps. By the way, Anderson Power Poles are a well respected connector that are used commercially as well as for Ham gear (they offer mechanical protection from cross polarization, as well as up to 75 amps of through-put!). Also, they're cheap.   I made a bunch of Power pole to 4 pin XLR, Power Pole to 2.1mm DC, Power Pole to Blah Blah Blah Cables….you get the idea.  Also, West Mountian Radio offer’s the “Whatt Meter”  that  tell’s you  amps used, etc.

Here's a link to a bunch of 12 volt stuff:

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps.html

http://www.westmountainradio.com/

Tom confirmed with me that it's been over 3 years, 12 shows and no "kick-outs" or dropped power.  That saying a lot considering overnights, rain, episodic TV and New England winters!

Kevin Parker

PS  This is also the show that Tom started using a 2 video, 2 audio Muxlab Balun to tie in to Video Assist via Cat 5.  He says he'll never go back to coax!  

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just built my first cart and couldn't afford to get the real deal power units. So I use x1  12V 45amp/hour deep cell marine battery. I just wired a 4 pin plug on the terminals and wired a feed into the cart, is runs the SD recorder and SD mixer along with an LCD monitor for about 4 days..

I'm not sure how RF and other interferences would effect it but until now I have had no problem. Although I must say that they are quite heavy but portable in size.

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I just built my first cart and couldn't afford to get the real deal power units. So I use x1  12V 45amp/hour deep cell marine battery. I just wired a 4 pin plug on the terminals and wired a feed into the cart, is runs the SD recorder and SD mixer along with an LCD monitor for about 4 days..

I'm not sure how RF and other interferences would effect it but until now I have had no problem. Although I must say that they are quite heavy but portable in size.

I hope you put a fuse in the power line from the battery?

My set up is about as simple as yours equipment wise, and the next step I took was the small PSC "Cart Power", which allows seamless switching between AC and the battery, and has circuit breakers to protect the gear.  It's not very expensive and has worked great for me w/ a similar battery.

Philip Perkins

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  • 1 month later...

I have just what you need - and several of them

look at

http://wolfvid.com/datasheets/Specials.pdf

latter in the doc.  Astron powersupply with fused outlets and cables to charge a lead acid.

same as the pretty blue box, but a REAL transformer isolated input ( yes its heavy

wolf

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An important note about the PSC "Cart Power" unit:

First, please understand I'm not knocking PSC, or their products, here.  They're good people who make good gear and give good customer service.  However, as more and more people are using lithium batteries, I feel compelled to mention a "gotcha" with the Cart Power.

I was excited to receive the unit -- it appeared to be just what I needed:  Universal AC to 12v. power supply with plenty of amperage and automatic switchover to my battery supply if I lost AC.

Well, it turns out, that in my setup, it does just the opposite:  It drains the battery first and then switches over to the AC power supply.  Oops, that's the exact opposite of what I need!

The problem lies in the way the unit operates in that it defaults to whichever is the highest voltage of the two (D.C. out from the power supply, or D.C. out from the battery), and then switches over if that voltage becomes lower than the other.  I'm using Lithium batteries, and since they run at a higher voltage than the power supply output, they drain first.

PSC said they have run into this before and can make me a unit with a higher voltage (15v.) power supply that should solve the problem.  I'm a bit leery of this solution since the Lithium batteries charge up to a quiescent voltage above 16v. and when under load from the cart still start out at about 15.75v.  So, whether the 15v. power supply would totally solve the issue depends upon exactly what voltage it actually outputs and what that voltage is under load conditions.  For instance, a great many 12v. power supplies actually output something higher than 12v.

I returned the Cart Power to the dealer with no problem.  The person I spoke with at PSC was gracious to deal with and I only have good things to say about the company.  However, I'm sharing my experience because I feel it would be helpful for everyone to understand specifically how this unit operates.

John B.

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I've just updated my Cart power system. My older system was a battery charger floating over a 35 Amp hour Gel cell battery, but it was limited to 5 AMPS. After recently adding a 788T to my cart and maxing out my Venue receiver with 6 VRT modules, my power requirements are now over the 5 amp output of the charger.

So I went with a recommendation from a colleague who has been using this battery charger for 2 years now.

Xantrex Truecharge 10 (10 amp output, 3 stage marine battery charger)

truecharge10tb_290x230.jpg

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/185/p/1/pt/7/product.asp

I've located my charger next to my battery at the bottom of the cart, and I have it wired up to my battery. I then run a 4 pin XLR up to the top portion of my cart into a Remote Audio Hot Box, then out to all my gear. I've been running it a couple of weeks now, and it's been good. I did need to do some troubleshooting at first, because I was losing almost a volt from the battery to my 788T (only piece of gear I have with it's own external power supply display). It turns out there's some kind of loss happening in the Hotbox. I doubled up my cabling up to the hot box, by using all four pins in the XLR, and that helped somewhat, but there's still a half Volt loss between the battery and the outputs of the hotbox. In any case, the half volt difference hasn't been a factor yet, but I'm hoping to solve the issue soon.

Getting back to the Xantrex charger, It's a great unit. I've even seen them modified to have 6 female 4 pin xlr's built right into the side of them (there's enough free space along the right hand side to fit them right in the box) that way you could mount it right up inside your cart, plug all your gear right to it, but still run a wire down to your battery and keep the battery's weight down low.

So far it's been good, but I'd love to find a nice lightweight lithium solution.

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An important note about the PSC "Cart Power" unit:

First, please understand I'm not knocking PSC, or their products, here.  They're good people who make good gear and give good customer service.  However, as more and more people are using lithium batteries, I feel compelled to mention a "gotcha" with the Cart Power.

I was excited to receive the unit -- it appeared to be just what I needed:  Universal AC to 12v. power supply with plenty of amperage and automatic switchover to my battery supply if I lost AC.

Well, it turns out, that in my setup, it does just the opposite:  It drains the battery first and then switches over to the AC power supply.  Oops, that's the exact opposite of what I need!

The problem lies in the way the unit operates in that it defaults to whichever is the highest voltage of the two (D.C. out from the power supply, or D.C. out from the battery), and then switches over if that voltage becomes lower than the other.  I'm using Lithium batteries, and since they run at a higher voltage than the power supply output, they drain first.

PSC said they have run into this before and can make me a unit with a higher voltage (15v.) power supply that should solve the problem.  I'm a bit leery of this solution since the Lithium batteries charge up to a quiescent voltage above 16v. and when under load from the cart still start out at about 15.75v.  So, whether the 15v. power supply would totally solve the issue depends upon exactly what voltage it actually outputs and what that voltage is under load conditions.  For instance, a great many 12v. power supplies actually output something higher than 12v.

I returned the Cart Power to the dealer with no problem.  The person I spoke with at PSC was gracious to deal with and I only have good things to say about the company.  However, I'm sharing my experience because I feel it would be helpful for everyone to understand specifically how this unit operates.

John B.

I have a Cart Power and it operates properly--it supplies 13.5 vdc off the power supply when a 12v gel cel is also connected, and switches over to the battery if the AC supply is shut off.  The gel cel is around 12.5 VDC nominal and will power the cart for several hours if need be (33AH).  It has operated in this manner on countless jobs--the Cart Power performs its function very well for a fairly low cost.

Philip Perkins

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Philip,

I'm glad you jumped in to offer your comments.  I knew you were really happy with the unit and your satisfaction was among the reasons I decided to go that route.  I'm certainly not knocking the unit and don't want anyone to think I am.  My intent in sharing my experience is that I think it helps everyone to understand how it works in order to know if it'll fit well in a particular situation.  Your comments help to underscore the circumstances under which it certainly does fit the bill.

The bottom line is, the backup battery needs to be of a lower voltage than the power supply generates.

I'm curious what the actual output voltage of the 15v. supply is.

John B.

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Philip,

I'm glad you jumped in to offer your comments.  I knew you were really happy with the unit and your satisfaction was among the reasons I decided to go that route.  I'm certainly not knocking the unit and don't want anyone to think I am.  My intent in sharing my experience is that I think it helps everyone to understand how it works in order to know if it'll fit well in a particular situation.  Your comments help to underscore the circumstances under which it certainly does fit the bill.

The bottom line is, the backup battery needs to be of a lower voltage than the power supply generates.

I'm curious what the actual output voltage of the 15v. supply is.

John B.

The output voltage on mine is 13.5 vdc, which I think is the max it will do.  My guess is that it was designed with gel-cel type marine etc batteries in mind, which are generally at a lower voltage than that.  What battery were you trying to use w/ the Cart Power?

Philip Perkins

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The output voltage on mine is 13.5 vdc, which I think is the max it will do.  My guess is that it was designed with gel-cel type marine etc batteries in mind, which are generally at a lower voltage than that.  What battery were you trying to use w/ the Cart Power?

You're right on all counts.  PSC told me that it was designed for using with lead-acid chemistry.  For the 15v. version, they actually substitute a different power supply since the one in there now is running full tilt as you said.

I'm using the IDX lithium Ion NP-1 batteries running tandem in a dual battery holder.  That gives me over 9 Amp hours per pair.  I can be charging a pair while running a pair and I can swap out one battery at a time.  Of course I don't run a charged battery alongside a depleted one for any longer than the few seconds it takes to swap the two without bringing down the power grid.  I love the light weight of this system.

Depending upon what's powered up on the cart I can often get over 4 hours from a pair.  Typically, even if all the audio gear is on battery, I try to power the video monitors from A.C.  If I ran everything on the cart:  mixer, two recorders, 5 Lectro receivers, 3 Comtek transmitters, a Lectro transmitter, two video monitors, lights, and a powered playback speaker, I would only get maybe 2.5 hrs. per pair.

John B.

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  • 2 weeks later...

new writeup of Battery - charger - powersupply.

I dont recommend Battery chargers for float applications, they tend to be noisy.

http://wolfvid.com/datasheets/Batteries_and_chargers.pdf

you can get at this only from this address. its not visible on  my website. I dont want a bunch of Yahoos calling me. None here of course.  wolf

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they have a 15v version? Where?  I don't see it on their website or any retailers? 

No, it's not listed as a standard item.  They told me that they had made one with that power supply in it for another customer.  It requires that they order in a different version of the power supply that is used in the unit. 

Call them, it's a special order.  They said the price would be the same but you'd want to confirm that -- things sometimes change due to availabilities, etc.

John B.

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everything I know about powering 12 V ( it was written kinda Red centric - sorry) [watch out for switching power supplies - not all are quite in the UHF range ( they transmit UHF noise and garbage, especially at higher Amperages), you might notice reduced range of radio mikes !!! and some like Alinco are impossible to filter. I like heavy transformers, there is no question that they are RF quite. Some batterychargers have loud RF pulses when they switch states, use floating power supplies...

http://wolfvid.com/datasheets/Batteries_and_chargers.pdf

wolf

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  • 3 weeks later...

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