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frame rate for 744 with canon 5d mark ii


Chris Leone

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Guest BobD

Always check with the editor as to what TC they will require if they need to go to your Disc for data rather than using the camera audio....  Then get them to send you an email with the info....  This way there's a record. You will then be doing what they want...  Unless they require something you know is incorrect, you should be fine...

Other than Panasonic always getting 29.97 ND there seems to be no official standard....  Open up a line of communication, with the post folks, that way your covered...

I wish someone here would post up a list of current "standards"....  Problem is, there seems to be no "standards"  It's always like the reinvention of the wheel.  Everyone seems to have a different work flow...  Until someone figures out a "standard",  I would call ahead...

 

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We did exhaustive testing w/ 3 different recorders and the 5D, and what we discovered is that one must set the edit frame rate of the project in FCP to true 30 fps, and record on a pro NL recorder at 30 TC 48.048.  No other combination of frame rate and sample rate stayed in sync in FCP 6 at all.  We also rolled our tests (3 separate sessions) on a Sony D50 non-TC handheld recorder and the low-end Zoom (H2) at 48k at the same time, as well a scratch track to the 5D.  With recorders that don't make metadata, we found we could get their files to sync w/ 5D footage in FCP 6 by changing the sample rate metadata to 47.952 from 48k in Wave Agent.  I know that this all sounds wacky, but it does work--we have a good sized doc going on being shot w/ 2 5Ds making a lot of footage, and this is the MO we've come up with.  My personal guess about what it is that we're doing is that we've stumbled on a way to fool FCP 6 into doing what we want it to rather than what it thinks is the correct course of action with these files.  I also think that in a few months none of this will be relevant, when Panasonic comes out with their cameras and Canon updates the 5D....

Philip Perkins

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Hey Philip, funny how timing works out in life. Today my neighbor and partner in Alley Productions, Rob Terry and I did a test with his Cannon 5D Mark II and recorded double system w my SD744T as well as Pro Tools. He just updated the firmware so the camera is now all manual. The SD was 30 ndf at 48k and in Pro Tools which I believe was 29.97 fps 24b/48k. The 5D and the SD wav files sync'd up and the PT wav drifted way off in the 6 minute recording/shooting. We imported the test into FCP 6.0.5 and sync held great w the SD at 30ndf/24b/48k. Maybe a longer take would drift, I haven't done that test yet. I am sure there is a reason to do it as you suggest, but our test seemed to work well. The picture looked great. Of course it was me on camera. I must say though, some have said I have a face for radio....

CrewC

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I would be curious about how long your takes were--but they can't be longer than about 12 min w/ the current cards avail to use with the 5D anyhow, right?  In our tests the drift was pretty fast at 30/48 (on the SD) and 48k on the non TC machines--only the sample rate tricks made things work.  However, there is still the whole issue of how the project is set up in FCP and that makes a big diff in how this works.    Was your FCP project rate 30?  I'll ask the guy I worked with about the firmware update--when you say the cam is now all manual, do you mean picture settings of the audio levels as well? 

Philip Perkins

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Hey Philip, we did 5 takes, the longest 6 plus min long. We had to use Compressor to make the 5D Mark II files to Apple ProRes files to use in FCP. The new version automatically sets the FCP timeline to the media imported. Imported SD wav files in and synced to the clapper.

The camera is manual in most aspects other than the sound. We didn't feed sound to the camera. It does have an onboard mic that sounded ok.

CrewC

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Hey Philip, we did 5 takes, the longest 6 plus min long. We had to use Compressor to make the 5D Mark II files to Apple ProRes files to use in FCP. The new version automatically sets the FCP timeline to the media imported. Imported SD wav files in and synced to the clapper.

The camera is manual in most aspects other than the sound. We didn't feed sound to the camera. It does have an onboard mic that sounded ok.

CrewC

Camera has BAD AGC.  But useful as a scratch track.  That is what we synced against in FCP.  What was your FCP frame rate?  Just to be sure of your methodology you might want to try another test w/ the audio fed to the camera as well as a comparison, and go for a longer take.

Philip Perkins

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When we used Compressor to make the mpeg files into ProRes files the one we chose kept the frame rate the same. When we imported the files into FCP, we were prompted if we wanted to keep this as our frame rate. We said yes. That makes the project 30fps. We imported 30ndf wavs from the Sound Devices and synced them from the clap. 6 + min, no drift. We are going to do a longer takes this weekend if we are both off. I will let you know the results.

CrewC

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Okay, so I seem to be wrong... not the first time (shhhh).

I suppose the question is... Do these cameras record exactly 30 frames per second, like a film camera records 24 frames per second?  I suppose that it being all digital, and not tape-based, then that might actually be the case.  It's a good thing FCP has a "true" 30fps option, since I didn't know that it is a remotely standard picture format.  This is all very disturbing, but I am glad that people here have the resources and access to test these things for folks like Leone.

Robert

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Hey Robert, the 5D Mark II from Cannon is a weird unit for sure. Great still camera, but it does shoot true 30fps 1080p in the mpeg format. The camera has just been made manual in the motion mode ala a firmware upgrade from Cannon. Prior to now it was a full auto limited motion camera. It still is in many ways, but man it shoots great motion images. I'm sure it will be seen by many of us. Double system for sure as the on board AGC is like a drunk mixer on a bad day at best...

CrewC

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Hey Robert, the 5D Mark II from Cannon is a weird unit for sure. Great still camera, but it does shoot true 30fps 1080p in the mpeg format. The camera has just been made manual in the motion mode ala a firmware upgrade from Cannon. Prior to now it was a full auto limited motion camera. It still is in many ways, but man it shoots great motion images. I'm sure it will be seen by many of us. Double system for sure as the on board AGC is like a drunk mixer on a bad day at best...

CrewC

I'm checking w/ my dudes on this--maybe their import routine was different--all of these methods can't be right (even though they are all working).  If you guys do another test do me a favor and send audio the camera, the 744 AND a 48k file recorder w/o TC (which is what my shooter friends are using) like a Zoom etc and then sync them all up.  We had to fiddle with the non-TC files for sure to get sync, and our 30/48 files drifted away from the onboard camera audio right away.  We clapped a slate every minute or so.

Philip Perkins

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Hey Crew--check this out:  reply from the editor I did the 5D tests with:

>>The guys who were getting 30/48 files to sync in FCP converted the 5D files to Apple Pro Res in Compressor.  Is that what you did?

phil p<<<

>>Yup.  We have also had some clips sync fine, not all though.  Fun times.<<

Woo Hoo!  Moving target!

Phil P

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Guest BobD

Always check with the editor as to what TC they will require if they need to go to your Disc for data rather than using the camera audio....  Then get them to send you an email with the info....  This way there's a record. You will then be doing what they want...  Unless they require something you know is incorrect, you should be fine...

Other than Panasonic always getting 29.97 ND there seems to be no official standard....  Open up a line of communication, with the post folks, that way your covered...

I wish someone here would post up a list of current "standards"....  Problem is, there seems to be no "standards"  It's always like the reinvention of the wheel.  Everyone seems to have a different work flow...  Until someone figures out a "standard",  I would call ahead...

 

Didn't realize you guys WERE the editor....  Didn't concentrate on the camera type when I read it... 

Where do you guys find time for this stuff?  This is what surprises me the most....  Wish I had the time for such activities....  Sounds like some fun...

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Didn't realize you guys WERE the editor....  Didn't concentrate on the camera type when I read it...  

Where do you guys find time for this stuff?  This is what surprises me the most....  Wish I had the time for such activities....  Sounds like some fun...

I guess it was fun, but mostly it's a case of "forewarned is forearmed".  People I work for really dig this camera, and expect me to be able to record sync sound for/with it, and as you might expect aren't too interested in the details of what works or doesn't.  This is the same kind of drill we've been going thru w/ cameras like the RED for the last while--one wants to know what will work BEFORE the job, like with our own gear involved etc..  You work on commercials etc a lot I believe, so you know how rabbitty producers can get if they sense a delay or extra workaround for post....

AND...we don't have a definitive answer yet--perhaps because the camera's clock is too unstable to give us reliable results

session to session.  Certainly everything we have learned so far about the process can't be true....

Philip Perkins

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BobD, who said anything about having time. I wish I had more. My neighbor and I do media for a number of small companies. We own n shoot the HVX200 for most of our stuff. This new Cannon is his cause he shoots stills and works in Photoshop for a number of clients, but it is becoming a hot new camera for motion, so those are my reasons for investing my time. Hope all is well.

CrewC

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Guest BobD

Sounds like some fun as I said....  I should figure it out as well,  we'll probably be working with this as an actual format before too long... Every show creeps slowly along that path.

  Glad you guys are nice enough to work towards solutions...  I know you guys are busy as well, kind what I was trying to say...  when I do get some time these days, there's always something to do at home......  Always...

Thanks...

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I think I'm wrong about the camera's clock--I say this because in all our testing 2 5Ds stay in sync with each other for the length of the card's capacity (12 minuteish), so I don't don't know what is going on.  I guess if I had to do a job with the thing tmw (and didn't need to run and gun) I'd be tempted to run 2 recorders, one @ 48.048 and one @ 48.

To the OP of this thread--sorry we don't have a definite answer for you...

Philip Perkins

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It seems to me that the camera drifts within that 1% range, so you'd just be guessing.  Obviously with no way to feed the camera audio, and no way to accurately sync audio, the best way is to perhaps record 30/48 (a pretty standard format) and slip and re-sync audio in post to match the picture edit.  Good to perhaps advise of this limitation when signing up for the job.

Robert

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Robert, you can feed sound into the 5D on a 1/8 in mini, I and I assume Philips gang, are trying to make it work double system.

Philip, we haven't done so yet, but there is a firmware hack that lets one turn off the AGC and set a level. Not my call cause it is Rob's camera, but he seems willing. BTW the 12 min limit is a Canon thing. You can put larger cards in but the Camera stops at 12 min. You can then start it again w no problem so far. My guess is that it is a FCP issue. My Guess, no facts.

BobD, I bet we will see this sooner rather than later as you said. Also they say 'House done, Man die'... Could be true.

CrewC

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Robert, you can feed sound into the 5D on a 1/8 in mini, I and I assume Philips gang, are trying to make it work double system.

Philip, we haven't done so yet, but there is a firmware hack that lets one turn off the AGC and set a level. Not my call cause it is Rob's camera, but he seems willing. BTW the 12 min limit is a Canon thing. You can put larger cards in but the Camera stops at 12 min. You can then start it again w no problem so far. My guess is that it is a FCP issue. My Guess, no facts.

BobD, I bet we will see this sooner rather than later as you said. Also they say 'House done, Man die'... Could be true.

CrewC

The hack I saw also involved some electronics work and the taking apart of the camera.  That idea hasn't gained much traction around here, because even minus the AGC the camera still doesn't sound anywhere near as good as its pictures look.  The shooters really want the non-TC handheld recorder (D50 etc) thing to work for their own stuff and for a SD recorder to work for jobs.

Philip Perkins

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I'll have another chance to do a test shoot on monday but I might only have access to an Avid system on that day.  The actual shoot will be edited in FCP.  I'm clueless about the differences between Avid and FCP.  Is it even worth it to test sync issues in Avid when the actual shoot will be done in FCP?

Leone 

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I'll have another chance to do a test shoot on monday but I might only have access to an Avid system on that day.  The actual shoot will be edited in FCP.  I'm clueless about the differences between Avid and FCP.  Is it even worth it to test sync issues in Avid when the actual shoot will be done in FCP?

Leone   

My suspicion about why this whole process has been so inconsistent mostly has to do with what FCP is doing with the files (via Compressor etc), so if your project is going to be edited FCP then I think it is best to do your tests with the very one that will be doing the cut (and the same editor if poss.).  Avid and FCP are very different beasts under the hood.

Philip Perkins

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