Midrange Wireless Boom

[Dognut44]

Hey guys,

 

I've been a big fan of this forum for many years and I just want to thank you all for sharing your expertise and knowledge for little to no thanks. 
 

I am a beginner to location sound, with three channels of G4’s a CMC6MK41, MKH416, MKH8060 and a couple of Cos11’s all running into a zoom F8. I’m relatively happy with my kit at the moment, obviously there is room to improve (if you have any advice about that please let me know!)

 

I’m working on a rather large narrative project this summer and think it would be beneficial to have a wireless boom set up. I don’t have the money for a HMA or A10 system unfortunately but am looking for something that doesn’t massively degrade sound quality. Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance!

[olix]

Sony Uwp d-26

 

[IronFilm]

I'm afraid if you're buying new, then you've got the best of the best at the low end such as Sony UTX-P40 or Deity HD-TX, and then you have the professional gear from Lectro/Wisycom/Zax/Audio/etc

And in between it is just a big empty gulf!

Are you going to have a boom op working under you, is that why you need wireless? If not, and you're doing it solo (which I would not recommend for a "big narrative project"!), you might want to just stick with wired boom as you'll be always next to yourself! And keep on saving up for new pro gear. 

The 2nd option is:
Go for secondhand pro gear from a generation or two ago, they're more affordable and still very very good, such as Lectro UH400a

3rd option: just settle for a Sony/Deity/Sennheiser (probably in that order of personal preference I'd say) boom?? As heh, after all the rest of your wireless is only G4
 

[Trey LaCroix]

There really isn’t any in my opinion. I really don’t think it’s wise to compromise the quality of a boom. Get a nice system that sounds comparable to a cable or use a cable until you can afford one.

 

I guess I can see using the G4 plug on for shots that are not possible with a cable, but I wouldn’t use it all the time. Go with one of the major players of you want wireless boom all the time.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Trey LaCroix said:

 

I guess I can see using the G4 plug on for shots that are not possible with a cable, but I wouldn’t use it all the time.

That's not a bad idea, do a mix of cabled and wireless. 

I'm going to assume:
You're doing this " large narrative project this summer " with a boom op, but your kit is still somewhat small and you'll be working from your bag (or perhaps a small mini cart-bag hybrid), thus you can be nimble and stay very close to your boom op and move around as needed. You won't need to run 60ft of XLR cable all across the set, and constantly be moving it around, just to get your boom feed. You can kinda "move with" your boom op.

Thus a hardwired boom (ideally with a Sound Devices MM1 for your boom op) could be very doable indeed for most of the time. But for those few times a week (such as say a spinning 360 degree gimbal shot) when you can't go hardwired then you bring out a Deity HD-TX (or similar ish, such as a Sony UTX-P40) just for those specific shots, then once you're done you go back to your hardwired boom setup with your MM1. 

Could be a reasonable low budget compromise between quality vs efficiency on set. (as running a hardwired boom to a boom op 100% of time is likely going to be a pain sometimes, especially without a utility to manage cabling)

[Dognut44]

Firstly, I just want to say thank you for all your replies, they've been very helpful!

 

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'm afraid if you're buying new, then you've got the best of the best at the low end such as Sony UTX-P40 or Deity HD-TX

 

Yeah that's what I feared. Have you had any experience with the Deity HD-TX, I love the concept but am wary of 2.4ghz systems. 

 

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Are you going to have a boom op working under you, is that why you need wireless? If not, and you're doing it solo (which I would not recommend for a "big narrative project"!), you might want to just stick with wired boom as you'll be always next to yourself! And keep on saving up for new pro gear. 

The 2nd option is:
Go for secondhand pro gear from a generation or two ago, they're more affordable and still very very good, such as Lectro UH400a

 

I am going to be having boom op working under me thankfully which is why I am even considering wireless booming. I really value the audio quality I deliver but am trying to reconcile that with on-set efficiency! I think secondhand pro gear is probably the best option, if anyone has any older generation Lectros in UK friendly blocks they want to get rid of, please send me a message! 

 

I agree that going hardwired with an SD MM1 (unless I can get some older lectros) is probably the best option, just thought I'd ask you guys if you could think of any solutions

[Rick Reineke]

With the 100 series G2, 3 and 4, the plug-on transmitter is not phantom powered, so a 300 or 2000 Tx would be needed, and they alone cost about as much as an entire 100 series system.

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

Yeah that's what I feared. Have you had any experience with the Deity HD-TX, I love the concept but am wary of 2.4ghz systems. 

 

 

Remember that not all 2.4GHz systems are the same, just like not all UHF systems are the same. It is "just" a frequency band. 

Would be wrong to thing of UHF as sh*t just because there are (many many MANY!) bad UHF systems.

While I don't own any Deity wireless, it does seem like they've done the best job with 2.4GHz, and I've got a good mate who really likes his Deity, I'll probably pick up one set myself in the near future. 

I still think getting a UH400a is a better option, but if secondhand is out of the question then Deity HD-TX is worth a look. 

 

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

I am going to be having boom op working under me thankfully which is why I am even considering wireless booming. I really value the audio quality I deliver but am trying to reconcile that with on-set efficiency!

It is important to think about efficiency, and what is "efficient" varies from the standards of one set to another. 

If you're working on a big complex set, with dozens of people crowding around, and no sound utility to help with cabling, then I'd avoid using a hardwired boom. 

But if you've seen the locations, and broke down the script, know the director/producer/DoP and their way of working on set (high stress? Or relaxed pace? Going to be nitpicky? Or will they work together with you? Frequent loose and free flowing gimbal operator? Or always a fan of the meticulously planned locked off shots?), then you'll have a much better chance at judging if and how often you can use a hardwired boom.
 

if you judge that a large proportion of the film is going to be unsuitable for a hardwired boom (perhaps it is a horror film, which when they are not being panicked darting up and down long hallways, they're hiding in tight narrow spaces instead. So 80% of the film ends up being a royal pain in the ass to use a hardwired boom with. That's a totally different scenario to a slow paced romantic drama where 90% of the film is just a couple of actor chatting in the relaxed environment of lounge / kitchen / bedroom / cafe while everything is shot on sticks or perhaps a dolly), then you need to get back to the producer/director and explain that due to the complex requirements of their shoot you can't just do it on a shoestring budget of a hardwired boom, and you need an extra $100/day to rent a quality wireless system for your boom op. Then take that money and rent it, or buy a set. 

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

I agree that going hardwired with an SD MM1 (unless I can get some older lectros) is probably the best option, just thought I'd ask you guys if you could think of any solutions

Do make sure you get the MM1 and not the MP1 (even though the MP1 is often half the price of a MM1 on eBay), as the MM1 has the key feature of allowing the boom op to listen directly to his mic. This is especially important if your set doesn't have (which given the low budget nature of it, I'm going to guess is the case?) IFBs you could use to give him a boom feed. 

Additionally if you are not giving him any feed from yourself, you should think about getting a double cable (an old ENG snake with XLR ends on both sides could do the trick, or make your own) so you can take the boom into your recorder and also send back your coms to your boom op. As it is much more convenient and polite to be able to whisper instructions into your F8n than to shout out instructions across the set. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

With the 100 series G2, 3 and 4, the plug-on transmitter is not phantom powered, so a 300 or 2000 Tx would be needed, and they alone cost about as much as an entire 100 series system.

Yes, good point! If @Dognut44 does go with Sennheiser instead, they should be aware the cheaper 100 series doesn't provide phantom power. They're primarily intended for use by reporters and such, who don't need 48V phantom power with their mics. 

[Dognut44]

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It is important to think about efficiency, and what is "efficient" varies from the standards of one set to another. 

If you're working on a big complex set, with dozens of people crowding around, and no sound utility to help with cabling, then I'd avoid using a hardwired boom. 

 

Yeah unfortunately that's a fairly accurate description of what the set will be and no utility annoyingly!

 

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

But if you've seen the locations, and broke down the script, know the director/producer/DoP and their way of working on set (high stress? Or relaxed pace? Going to be nitpicky? Or will they work together with you? Frequent loose and free flowing gimbal operator? Or always a fan of the meticulously planned locked off shots?), then you'll have a much better chance at judging if and how often you can use a hardwired boom.
 

if you judge that a large proportion of the film is going to be unsuitable for a hardwired boom (perhaps it is a horror film, which when they are not being panicked darting up and down long hallways, they're hiding in tight narrow spaces instead. So 80% of the film ends up being a royal pain in the ass to use a hardwired boom with. That's a totally different scenario to a slow paced romantic drama where 90% of the film is just a couple of actor chatting in the relaxed environment of lounge / kitchen / bedroom / cafe while everything is shot on sticks or perhaps a dolly), then you need to get back to the producer/director and explain that due to the complex requirements of their shoot you can't just do it on a shoestring budget of a hardwired boom, and you need an extra $100/day to rent a quality wireless system for your boom op. Then take that money and rent it, or buy a set. 

 

I've worked with the director before and it is most certainly not a paticularly relaxed environment. It will be quite high paced with few locked off shots and the interiors are all quite cramped which is why I was considering a wireless setup. I've been offered a UH400 and a UCR411A for a relatively decent price (slightly over budget but potentially doable). Does that sound like a good idea to you? Any idea how the limiters perform?

 

Bear in mind I'm also more than happy to avoid plug ons entirely and just opt for a sandwich setup with a PS1A. 

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, good point! If @Dognut44 does go with Sennheiser instead, they should be aware the cheaper 100 series doesn't provide phantom power. They're primarily intended for use by reporters and such, who don't need 48V phantom power with their mics. 

 

I almost certainly will not be going for a Sennheiser system as I'm comfortable with some companding on lav channels but don't really want that to be present on the boom.

[Jim Rillie]

Hello "Dognut44"

 

You will be happy with the performance of UH400/411A combo.

Just don't let the Lectro limiters go too deep, if you know what I mean.

Your recorder, or mixer may have more sophisticated limiters. 

Companding artifacts are not really evident with the Lectro Digital Hybrid scheme.

The way movies are made now, wireless boom is almost always a necessity,

so a good, dependable wireless link in both audio and RF terms will help you.

If there are 2 cameras, the sound dept should have 3 people - how big is the Camera Dept?

 

All the best,

Jim Rillie

 

 

[Trey LaCroix]

Uh400 and UCR411a are killer. Sounds fantastic and you’ll get phenomenal range.

[Jim Feeley]

On 2/19/2020 at 6:08 AM, Dognut44 said:

I don’t have the money for a HMA or A10 system unfortunately but am looking for something that doesn’t massively degrade sound quality.

 

So how much money do you have? 

 

A used Lectro system could be a good way to go (as Jim and Trey suggest), but might take a while to find units in a frequency block you want. But google away and see what you can find.

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

Yeah unfortunately that's a fairly accurate description of what the set will be and no utility annoyingly!

 

Oh, I was expecting because of the extremely limited budget you are on that the set would be less busy. 
As having dozens and dozens of people on set gets expensive to be paying them all!

What exactly is your money issue here? Is it a cash flow problem? As in you'll surely earn enough from this feature film to buy yourself a quality wireless boom, just you don't currently have the money to buy it?

In which case, I'd highly recommend you tell the production you need half of your money to be paid up front. Then you can go buy a UCR411/UH400 with ease, and more!

 

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

've worked with the director before and it is most certainly not a paticularly relaxed environment. It will be quite high paced with few locked off shots and the interiors are all quite cramped which is why I was considering a wireless setup. I've been offered a UH400 and a UCR411A for a relatively decent price (slightly over budget but potentially doable).

Oh! Definitely sounds like the earlier thoughts of trying to use a wired boom as much as possible should be ditched. 

What price were you offered the Lectro kit for?

And what block is it in? As that is VERY IMPORTANT , and which block you should get entirely depends on where do you live?

 

8 hours ago, Dognut44 said:

Bear in mind I'm also more than happy to avoid plug ons entirely and just opt for a sandwich setup with a PS1A. 

Going for a UCR411/UM400 combo won't exactly be a cost savings at all. 

[Erob]

To go along with the Sony here has anyone tried the "new" Sony URX-S03D? Their two channel slot receiver? Just stumbled upon it recently, looks interesting and at a pretty good price point.