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Deity BP-TX 2 Announced


Mattias Larsen
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1 hour ago, Andrew From Deity said:

It is a consistent 19ms. It's not based on transmission range or distance between devices. The 19ms is related to the audio buffer in the transmitter that handles retransmissions of data packets. This gives the receiver a few milliseconds to check for any packet loss, request a retransmission from the transmitter and for the transmitter to submit it so the receiver can insert the missing data before it hits the DAC and sends audio out to your recording device. 

Thanks a lot for your answer.

It looks very promising indeed. I'm almost sold to the idea. Almost.

 

I can see those units replacing my good ol' trusty sennheiser g3's as camera hops and thus free some frequencies in the 500 mhz spectrum, . (and move on to a very crowded 2.4 ghz spectrum... But the "auto switch" channel feature looks nice, must see on real work conditions with teradeks and other devices spraying RF on this particular spectrum)

 

Another question is about the control of those devices wirelessly : If I understood correctly, you can only trigger "rec" button wirelessly (what about power management , put to sleep, boot on ?) via the connect duo RX... Any hints about a future app or remote feature that would not need a duo RX ?

I have to say that I respect the innovation and affordability of your products. Really cool for those who are starting out and want to build a kit. 

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Thanks Andrew for answering my questions. Regarding question 4 ( If you use 1 BP-TRX as a transmitter and set up another one as a camera hop or IEM to transmit to other BP-TRX's on cameras, or acting as IEM's, can you then listen "live" and still record in the US? ) sorry if I wasn't clear. I was wondering if you had a transmitter on the talent and were recording internally as well as transmitting to another BP-TRX that was set-up as a Camera Hop or IEM, would that unit be able to receive the initial transmitter and if so, could you then listen "live" to it.

I suspect that the transmitter can only transmit to one set up as a receiver and not as anything else. Hopefully I was better at explaining what I was asking about.

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11 hours ago, Sound said:

What happens if Therese units get  very popular? So you arrive at some location and two other broadcast teams are using some trx? Will I still be able to use mine? You said there is maximum of four in total.

And because they have such a big output, they could easily interfere.

And what about other receivers like rodelink oder rode wireless got? Will they interfere? Will they decrease the limit of four transmitters?

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On 5/26/2021 at 1:32 PM, igomarsound said:

Another question is about the control of those devices wirelessly : If I understood correctly, you can only trigger "rec" button wirelessly (what about power management , put to sleep, boot on ?) via the connect duo RX... Any hints about a future app or remote feature that would not need a duo RX ?
 

In your country yes. You can do all that from the DUO-RX. The up down keys on the DUO-RX will remotely trigger the REC features ANd in the menu you can select the transmitters and put them to a sleep mode. You can also wake them up remotely.

 

On 5/26/2021 at 5:10 PM, Justin Allen said:

Thanks Andrew for answering my questions. Regarding question 4 ( If you use 1 BP-TRX as a transmitter and set up another one as a camera hop or IEM to transmit to other BP-TRX's on cameras, or acting as IEM's, can you then listen "live" and still record in the US? ) sorry if I wasn't clear. I was wondering if you had a transmitter on the talent and were recording internally as well as transmitting to another BP-TRX that was set-up as a Camera Hop or IEM, would that unit be able to receive the initial transmitter and if so, could you then listen "live" to it.

I suspect that the transmitter can only transmit to one set up as a receiver and not as anything else. Hopefully I was better at explaining what I was asking about.

what you are asking is currently illegal in the USA.

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Here’s A comment from newsshooter.com, did the duo RX improve?

 

I really like what Deity are going for with this stuff, low-cost but professional features, but unfortunately I've been burned by the original Deity Connect. No matter the place, even in remote areas, I always seem to get interference – it's almost like the DUO-RX unit can't be close to any electronic equipment at all, including sound recorders which is not ideal. The whole system is just generally noisy, with interference buzz looming constantly. Add on top the sound delay hassle, which ruins poly-wav file recording with boom+lavs – I really wish I could just set thee delay to a fixed amount of milliseconds, then I could compensate on the inputs of my other mics.

At this point I just use my Sennheiser G3's and will be buying into G4's when I have the means for more channels. Curious to know if other people have had similar experiences.


..and again:

What happens if there is another camera team at the same location using these transmitters? Or some other WiFi transmitters from rode?

Will they interfere?

can only four be used in total then?

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10 hours ago, Sound said:

What happens if there is another camera team at the same location using these transmitters? Or some other WiFi transmitters from rode?

Will they interfere?

can only four be used in total then?

 

Well, there's the rub. 2.4Ghz wifi was intended to be a bursty transmission system for computing devices; sending packets in bursts while sharing bandwidth and spectrum. I expect the 13 overlapping channels were not forseen to be used as they are today. In order to send video or audio, a channel has to be used continuously. When using 2.4G wifi in this manner, there are only 4 non-overlapping channels. There's a diagram showing this in the wiki below.

 

I haven't found any papers that explain how to expect 2.4G devices behave in various conditions.

 

From the wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.4_GHz_radio_use

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28 minutes ago, Paul F said:

 

Well, there's the rub. 2.4Ghz wifi was intended to be a bursty transmission system for computing devices; sending packets in bursts while sharing bandwidth and spectrum. I expect the 13 overlapping channels were not forseen to be used as they are today. In order to send video or audio, a channel has to be used continuously. When using 2.4G wifi in this manner, there are only 4 non-overlapping channels. There's a diagram showing this in the wiki below.

 

I haven't found any papers that explain how to expect 2.4G devices behave in various conditions.

 

From the wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.4_GHz_radio_use

Thanks! That’s a huge problem.. as more and more People are using 2.4 ghz audio I guess it will be very hard on certain locations to get any reception at all.. the problem is: most reviewers get only a single unit to test. They should be given at least four. I don’t know if these can replace analog units at all.

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I don't know if it's a problem or not. I don't understand RF. It's all to spacey for me. I'd like to read a paper on this topic but I can't find any.

 

It's a matter of understanding how each wireless device works and it's pros and cons. 2.4G wireless is very successful and shouldn't be written off. It's just a matter of understanding what works and what doesn't. The more you know, the better you can use your tools. Why not have 2.4G and UHF in your kit?

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The poster from Deity has been pretty clear that their product isn't going to work well for a soundie who needs a batch of very reliable wireless for large complex jobs, and from that I take it that the user is expected to both do their research on the locations they'll be at (along with who else will be on the air there) and be using a small package more akin to what a simple one-person doco set up might be.  The former is what soundies are expected to do no matter who they are and where they are working--that is just modern RF life.  The latter is about who this gear is really designed for, ie small operators.  It would be great if Deity could overcome the laws of physics and US patents in a good sounding versatile rig at this price, but they haven't.  That said I am interested in hearing these, if only to recommend to my "personal doc" friends as a possible next step beyond the Senn. G2-3-4s they all use.

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Indeed, these are very inventive boxes and Deity is breaking new ground.  What I'd like to see if it is possible, is some papers on the topic of 2.4G wireless that helps us know when and how to use it. UHF is no panacea, but manufacturers have given us papers on  the issues with UHF, they have given us tools to scan the spectrum, they have given us tables to get around the problem. It would be helpful to have some materials that allow us to plan our 2.4G use. 

 

 

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The problem with the 2.4 GHz band is that it can be wildly unpredictable.

 

Apart from the usual WiFi signals there are other potential sources of interference. Except for standards based equipment, each manufacturer can take a completely different approach. So it is really difficult.

 

On the 2.4 GHz band you can find sources of interference such as motion sensors for alarm systems or wireless video feeds taking a lot of bandwidth. I remember some household units that rendered half of the band unusable with a constant carrier. 

 

Remember that the 2.4 GHz band is not so wide. The 5 MHz channels are not enough for a WiFi signal, each one takes 20 MHz. So, three different networks, properly configured, will take channels 1. 6 and 11 effectively taking all of the band. Even worse, some careless manufacturers have implemented 40 MHz "wide" channels so a single WiFi network takes most of the band.

 

While the traditional UHF bands are regulated, so there is a limited variety of interference sources you cand find, the 2.4 GHz ISM band is mostly the Wild West.  And nowadays you can find a lot of el cheapo junk creating interference. You won't see much of that on the traditional UHF bands. (I am saying "traditional UHF bands" because 2.4 GHz is still UHF (300 MHz to 3 GHz). 


I read the little information Deity published about their techniques to avoid interference and I am really impressed. I don't know the exact technical detals but I would respectfully suggest to explore spread spectrum and FEC techniques so that the delay can be at least bounded and predictable. Nevertheless I am writing from my armchair, I don't know whether it would be feasible given the power consumption, CPU power and size+weight constraints. And still, depending on the particular location and junk mix shit will happen. 

 

Be aware that sometimes, no matter how clever you are overcoming problems, equipment perpetrated by some idiot can still ruin your day.

 

Remember that idiot-proof designs don't exist because idiots can be so effective!

 

At the office we have a Rode Link system used by the marketing department and so far it has worked very well. But most of our WiFi traffic is on the 5 GHz band, so it doesn't cause issues for it. I am sure they will eventually tell me one day "hey, that wireless failed miserably, we couldn't get a reliable link". 

 

The 2.4 GHz is an unregulated part of the spectrum. That means that at the end of the day any service working on that band can just guarantee a best effort. 

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 11:58 AM, borjam said:

Remember that idiot-proof designs don't exist because idiots can be so effective!

Wes, our production manager, said long ago, "If you design an 'Idiot Proof' device, Mother Nature will just come up with a better idiot."

 

Best,

LEF

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Hi Andrew,

 

Can I check with you a few small detail: Lets say I'm using  the 'Time Code Kit' (2 units, cables etc) for TC and camera hop (ie 1 unit with the recorder sending audio and TC to the other 1 on the camera) – if there are problems with the signal/ RF space/ range between the 2:

~ Will the camera mounted unit carry on as before regarding TC? (I guess the units have their own TC generator but I'm wondering how the units handle the situation described).

~ Will it automatically re-jam with the recorder mounted unit when back in range? 

 

Regards,

 

Dan.

 

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just in case someone misunderstood what I meant with "idiot proof", in this case I was pointing at manufacturers of crappy equipment.

 

I found this example. A friend had WiFi problems in his bar. Turns out he had both a crappy audio/video transmitter and a 2.4 GHz motion detector.

 

The spectrum analyzer is a very simple one (an Oscium spectrum analyzer connected to an iPhone) but it worked.

 

 

photo.PNG

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On 5/28/2021 at 7:58 PM, borjam said:

The 2.4 GHz is an unregulated part of the spectrum. That means that at the end of the day any service working on that band can just guarantee a best effort.

Is there any reason that the deity trx cannot be built to work in the UHF-frequency-range?

Is frequency hopping not allowed in the UHF-range?

Here in Germany for example, the regulation of a big part of the UHF spectrum has been canceled.

This spectrum is now free for everybody.

On 5/28/2021 at 7:10 PM, Paul F said:

Indeed, these are very inventive boxes and Deity is breaking new ground.  What I'd like to see if it is possible, is some papers on the topic of 2.4G wireless that helps us know when and how to use it. UHF is no panacea, but manufacturers have given us papers on  the issues with UHF, they have given us tools to scan the spectrum, they have given us tables to get around the problem. It would be helpful to have some materials that allow us to plan our 2.4G use. 

 

 

As you cannot set any parameters regarding their wireless transmission in these devices exept switching them on or off, I guess there is not a lot you can do exept scan for other wifi sources and try to shut them down.. Or just hope for the best.

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12 minutes ago, Sound said:

Here in Germany for example, the regulation of a big part of the UHF spectrum has been canceled.

This spectrum is now free for everybody


That is absolutely not the case. While you don’t need a license anymore and thus have to pay no fee, the spectrum is otherwise still very much regulated. For example, the max transmit power remains at 50mW and only professional users are allowed to use this spectrum

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On 5/28/2021 at 6:25 PM, Paul F said:

I don't know if it's a problem or not. I don't understand RF. It's all to spacey for me. I'd like to read a paper on this topic but I can't find any.

 

It's a matter of understanding how each wireless device works and it's pros and cons. 2.4G wireless is very successful and shouldn't be written off. It's just a matter of understanding what works and what doesn't. The more you know, the better you can use your tools. Why not have 2.4G and UHF in your kit?

I guess this is exactly what I will be doing!

 

I will just buy a single set and use the duo receiver with two transmitters recording locally in the transmitter while adding an ultrasync one for timecode to my camera. This could be especially useful when using the camera on a gimbal, as I can just monitor audio from the receiver and not throwing the gimbal off balance with the headphone cable.

 

If more chanels are needed I can use the two TRX just as small timecode-recorders and using four of my Sony UWP-D Wireless.

So I can connect the output of two mono receivers to one stereo jack and add a simple switch to the headphone so I can monitor either pair one or pair two..

(I will have to plan which to channels I need to monitor at the same time in advance.) This is not very flexible solution, but very lightweight and the battery will last for ages, and the sonys have simple AA batteries, huge advantage).

I will have to find out, if I can easily sync a video clip with two of those stereo-recordings in tentacle sync studio. Until now, I only used it for syncing the mixpre 10 ii to my video.

 

If I need even more channels or more flexibility I can use them as stereo IEMs for my Mixpre 10 II.

Then I can use all 10 input channels and even record a backup of the monitored audio while transmitting the signal to my headphone.

 

 

1 minute ago, Constantin said:


That is absolutely not the case. While you don’t need a license anymore and thus have to pay no fee, the spectrum is otherwise still very much regulated. For example, the max transmit power remains at 50mW and only professional users are allowed to use this spectrum

Good to hear! So the UHF-Spectrum will not be too crowded in the next years.. Thats one reason more to stay with UHF. Thanks for your advice! :)

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On 5/28/2021 at 6:50 AM, Sound said:

What happens if there is another camera team at the same location using these transmitters? Or some other WiFi transmitters from rode?

Will they interfere?

can only four be used in total then?

I found the answer on their website:

 

"My Deity Connect system works fine but when I turn on my second kit i notice I get tons of dropouts.

Make sure when you are using transmitters that are paired to different receivers that you use the USB-C Master Slave Sync cable. Plug in the USB-C Master Slave Sync cable to both receivers to sync them up. This will help prevent your transmitters from hopping to the same frequency at the same time."

https://deitymic.com/duo-rx/

 

I guess that means:

If theres anybody else near you using the same deity products or even 2.4 ghz rode, you are screwed..

Screenshot 2021-05-30 at 20.28.28.png

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46 minutes ago, Constantin said:


That is absolutely not the case. While you don’t need a license anymore and thus have to pay no fee, the spectrum is otherwise still very much regulated. For example, the max transmit power remains at 50mW and only professional users are allowed to use this spectrum

 

Exactly. License exemption doesn’t mean absolute lack of regulation. 

 

For example, you don’t need a license to deploy IOT sensors using LPWAN technologies around 867 MHz in Europe. Yet you are subject to a maximum 5% duty cycle which is appropriate for stuff like temperature sensors but it makes it illegal to, say, stream audio. And of course there are transmission power regulations.

 

Sound should read the relevant regulations. Even in the best effort ISM bands there are as a bare minimum power limits. 

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10 hours ago, borjam said:

 

Exactly. License exemption doesn’t mean absolute lack of regulation. 

 

For example, you don’t need a license to deploy IOT sensors using LPWAN technologies around 867 MHz in Europe. Yet you are subject to a maximum 5% duty cycle which is appropriate for stuff like temperature sensors but it makes it illegal to, say, stream audio. And of course there are transmission power regulations.

 

Sound should read the relevant regulations. Even in the best effort ISM bands there are as a bare minimum power limits. 

I did. Still I guess more people will buy uhf systems when there are no license fees anymore. I hope there will be uhf systems with Timecode and local recording soon..

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2 hours ago, Sound said:

I did. Still I guess more people will buy uhf systems when there are no license fees anymore. I hope there will be uhf systems with Timecode and local recording soon..

 

Well, Audio Ltd. is there already. But of course it comes at a totally different price. 

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