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Tips for choosing micro for lab


settercoly

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We are documenting on video in a laboratory.

I understand that it is a "Creme de la Creme" forum but we cannot have an audio professional and a video professional all the time in the laboratory because we do not know when we are going to record and when we are not.

The camera is always on the tripod and we change the position of the tripod according to needs.

 

The microphone is on a separate tripod, fixed during recording and we record in a Zoom H6 or a Shogun Inferno.

 

The laboratory is about 9x9x2.40m, has no air currents and no vibrations.

When recording voice, up close, we use two SM58s, which sound fantastic.

The problem comes when we record the experiments, with the microphone about 2m away. In this case we use two ME66-K6.

 

They are not suitable microphones for indoor work and ceiling so low. Echo we have very little because the laboratory is very irregular and loaded with equipment. During the recording we move about a meter to the left and a meter to the right. The microphone is about two meters from us.

Moving like this it is easy to get out of the coverage area of the ME66 and the sound comes out very coloured depending on where we are.

We have these microphones because we have bought them without documenting ourselves, and for the price as well.

 

We want to buy a microphone that meets our needs, that covers about 90 degrees in front and that does not denature the voice at a distance of 2m. Our budget can cover an MKH40, MKH50, MKH8040 or MKH8050, more or less £1000 second hand, but we don't know if it's the right one for what we need. We have nowhere to go to try them out so we have to buy them under recommendations.

According to what we have studied in this forum, the MKH40 would be the one that best suits our needs but, since we do not want to fail, we ask for advice.

We only recorded a man's voice (I've seen that it's important)

Thank you!

 

 


 

 
 
 
 
 

 

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49 minutes ago, DanieldH said:

What sounds are of interest during the experiments? If It's people talking, I'd suggest lavs and body worn recorders.

 

People talking  to the camera, but we cannot use lavs for the protection equipment (aprons and glasses but not face masks)

 

We also don't know when we are going to record. We always have the cameras nearby but we don't have time to put the lavs.

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11 minutes ago, settercoly said:

People talking  to the camera, but we cannot use lavs for the protection equipment (aprons and glasses but not face masks)

Difficult to imagine, especially when mics may be visible. But may be. What about headset mics?

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I feel like you’re trying to defy physics here. The wider the spread of the mic the closer it’s going to have to be to sound good. The MKH 40 is a fantastic mic but it doesn’t sound good (no cardioid does) at 5-6 feet. You’re not going to get that “close mic’ed” sound without wiring up the subject or getting the mic closer.

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59 minutes ago, settercoly said:

We also don't know when we are going to record. We always have the cameras nearby but we don't have time to put the lavs.

Wear them all day, let the recorder run and run a camera mic for sync reference.

 

Sounds like a job for the new deity trx, if they are on the market soon enough (or multiple of them charging). Otherwise the Tascam DR10 and a midpriced lav/headset would meet your budget.

Edit: Assuming you mean 2 persons by "we".

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Lavs is impossible due to various security issues as well.

We could bring the microphone closer to a meter, if we hide it behind something.

 

We want the sound that we get with the Shure SM58 at 30cm to be able to get it with another microphone at 1 - 1.5m

Yes, we are two people in a field of two meters.

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14 minutes ago, DanieldH said:

If you want to record a moving voice, you want to do it with a moving mic. 

Anyway, before you buy some MKH or other condenser mic, rent one, or a few with various pickup patterns and test yourself, it it meets your needs.

 

 

 

It may be a good solution to rent 2 or 3 microphones to try.

Which one would you recommend to rent?

Thank you!

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17 minutes ago, settercoly said:

 

It may be a good solution to rent 2 or 3 microphones to try.

Which one would you recommend to rent?

Thank you!

You already mentioned a few MKH Models, that are of interest to you. Besides that, ask the rental house what they would advise and have available. 

The model is less relevant than the pattern, the pattern less than the distance and direction to the voice.

You may want to try some cardioid and supercardioid, like you already suggested in the MKH lines. Besides that, try a shotgun on/above the camera axis pointing in the middle of the "room of action" at various distances.

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The shotgun I have, ME66 is close up bad, it is far away bad, it is bad on axis and also off axis.

It produces a very nasal and very variable sound to the smallest that I move.

I understand that the more field there is less sensitivity and the less field there is more sensitivity.

If the shotgun would only change sensitivity and not tone, we could fix this in post but the one we have changes its tone.

We have done all possible tests.

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5 minutes ago, settercoly said:

The shotgun I have, ME66 is close up bad, it is far away bad, it is bad on axis and also off axis.

It produces a very nasal and very variable sound to the smallest that I move.

I understand that the more field there is less sensitivity and the less field there is more sensitivity.

If the shotgun would only change sensitivity and not tone, we could fix this in post but the one we have changes its tone.

We have done all possible tests.

Yes the ME66 has an ugly hiss. This can be compensated to a degree in post by a deesser filter. It is in the lower price range. MKH416, MKH60, CMIT, DPA4017, KMR81, CS-3e all those workhorses do not have this hiss. The first, MKH416 is rather unforgiving off axis but in the mid price range. It will still tell you, if a shotgun in this room at whatever distance is an option for you. The others are high priced, try any of them. If you get acceptable results, then, you could think about what model you could actually buy at what budget.

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I understand and respect that you protect your work. I have the same problem, but I cannot put doors on the field. For this reason, I do not ask about how to position the microphone or other details that I would not release. I'm only asking what tool.

I have seen that the MKH8050 does not change much in tone when it is off axis and is quite sensitive at 70cm. I know that it does not have a low pass filter like MKH50 but I am not going to move it and I will not do air currents either. The MKH8050 can be found second hand and tempts me.

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I never used an 8050. It is in a decent midpriced range and generally nice to have. It may or may not produce satisfiable  results for your lab shot. I am not protecting anything. There is no "right" tool, besides lavs/headworn mics. Anything else is try and error. 

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As you have discovered, the ME66 is not really suitable for anything in the realm of quality professional audio. Its predecessor in the budget world, the ME80, sounded notably better, albeit with a rather high noise floor. 

 

My first choice here would definitely be a Schoeps colette series mic with an MK41 capsule coupled with a CMC1 or CMC6 preamp. The smoothness of the Schoeps' off-axis response makes it one of the most natural sounding mics available. With its excellent smoothness, the Schoeps will likely yield more intelligible and consistent dialog than most other choices. 

 

However, if you expect a distant room microphone to give you a tight close-miked sound, it makes one wonder if your experiments defy the laws of physics as you are expecting your audio to do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Paul F said:

Since  you are only moving a couple of meters one way or the other, what about placing two or more mics on the lab benches? As always, it's more about where you place the microphone, not which microphone you use.

 

27 minutes ago, John Blankenship said:

My first choice here would definitely be a Schoeps colette series mic with an MK41 capsule coupled with a CMC1 or CMC6 preamp.

 

 

Special order a matched set in white finish from Schoeps and put some lab equipment manufacturer logo on it. 🙈

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20 minutes ago, DanieldH said:

 

 

Special order a matched set in white finish from Schoeps and put some lab equipment manufacturer logo on it. 🙈

On request, they only paint them in yellow.🤔

 

52 minutes ago, John Blankenship said:

My first choice here would definitely be a Schoeps colette series mic with an MK41 capsule coupled with a CMC1 or CMC6 preamp. The smoothness of the Schoeps' off-axis response makes it one of the most natural sounding mics available. With its excellent smoothness, the Schoeps will likely yield more intelligible and consistent dialog than most other choices. 

 

However, if you expect a distant room microphone to give you a tight close-miked sound, it makes one wonder if your experiments defy the laws of physics as you are expecting your audio to do. 

 

 

So even the Schoeps isn't going to sound good at 1m?😢

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1 minute ago, settercoly said:

On request, they only paint them in yellow.🤔

 

 

So even the Schoeps isn't going to sound good at 1m?😢

In a perfect room with zero or near zero reflection, and only one source of sound, any decent mic will produce... decent results from 10 Meters away (self noise aside). 

Schoeps, Neumann, DPA, SennheiserMKH are the BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Porsches in the mic world. They may be nicer, more enjoyable, but they don't make freezing rain less slippery. A shabby Skoda will get you home just as well if you drive carefully and put your mics close to the source.

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8 minutes ago, DanieldH said:

In a perfect room with zero or near zero reflection, and only one source of sound, any decent mic will produce... decent results from 10 Meters away (self noise aside). 

Schoeps, Neumann, DPA, SennheiserMKH are the BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Porsches in the mic world. They may be nicer, more enjoyable, but they don't make freezing rain less slippery. A shabby Skoda will get you home just as well if you drive carefully and put your mics close to the source.

The ME66 does the job too but it sounds like a Trabant (never better said)

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1 hour ago, settercoly said:

🤔

...

So even the Schoeps isn't going to sound good at 1m?😢

 

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. 

 

The Schoeps sounds great at 1m or at 10m, but the ratio of direct to reflected sound changes, so getting what you want depends upon a good understanding of that relationship, the room acoustics, and the effect of those acoustics. In any room you're dealing with wave reflection, absorption, and diffusion, taking into account that each of those varies by frequency, and is different throughout the room. 

 

Then there's the whole issue of what are your expectations. 

 

So, yes, the Schoeps sounds great, but it's a tool, not a magic wand. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, John Blankenship said:

However, if you expect a distant room microphone to give you a tight close-miked sound, it makes one wonder if your experiments defy the laws of physics as you are expecting your audio to do. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, John Blankenship said:

 

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. 

 

 

I probably misunderstood what you said but I am seriously thinking about the MK41.

The problem is that there is no second-hand.

MKE8050 can be found used and the price drops quite a bit.

I also understand that if there are no used Schoeps it is because they are good.

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It's not clear from your inquiry what the objective is. Obviously you wish to improve the quality of recorded sound, primarily voices I assume, but to what purpose exactly?

 

Would this be to achieve a documentary record that would preserve the content of the speech?

Or, perhaps, to preserve the content at quality levels that make it easy for the listener discern words without fatigue?

Or, perhaps, to yield quality that might be suitable for incorporating the results into a promotional film?

 

As the expectation rises toward mellifluous tone, greater and greater effort is necessary to accomplish the goal.

 

Assuming you seek to have good tone from the researchers so the listener doesn't need to strain to hear, I would recommend that you choose a microphone from your list of candidates and mount it so that it is about one meter closer to the subject than your camera lens. A good audio shop should be able to help with brackets and short boom poles that could be attached to your camera or to the tripod to hold a microphone above your lens and projecting about a meter into the room. This makes it only a bit more clumsy to move into position and would cut the distance from microphone to speaker roughly in half. (You stated that the microphone was often about two meters away.) That should produce pretty good sound, maybe even better than good, under most circumstances and would increase your costs very modestly.

 

Among your microphone candidates there are no bad choices. They are all very good. They do differ a bit and there may be reasons to prefer one over the other but any one should be able to accomplsh your goal. With the idea of mounting the microphone on a one meter pole, the Sennheiser 8050 might be a preferred choice just because it is so small and light. 

 

David 

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