Improving my bag

[Sound]

Hi,

I made my first audio "budget" bag and I am very curious about your comments. Unfortunately I cannot build an antenna diversity system without modding all the receivers, but so far it works. I am not sure if a diversity will make it much better. It's kind of hard to mount the Sony uwp-d receivers in the bag as they are not intended for bag use and you need access to the infrared sync on the side. They are powered with a simple powerbak via micro usb. Does anybody have Ideas on how to improve it without spending a lot of money? The mixpre 10 ii ist powered with the np-f adapter, which works for small np-f batteries. The larger batteries break easily as they push with the battery side against the bottom of the bag.

[Constantin]

Even without the distro these are diversity receivers already. 
The way they are mounted in your bag now you’re not making the best use of the diversity receivers, though. It can work well like that, but it would be more beneficial to mount them sideways, so the antennas are arranged left/right rather than behind each other. You can perhaps put two receivers behind each other if it doesn’t fit

[Michael Manzke]

My first thought would be to get a less bulky bag or to attach the receivers on the outer frame. That way you'll also gain space inside the bag. 
Depending on the kind of jobs you do on a regular basis you might want to ask yourself if you really need to care about the IR for syncing. 
Also some right angle TRS connectors seem to be a good idea :)

[Sound]

1 hour ago, Constantin said:

Even without the distro these are diversity receivers already. 
The way they are mounted in your bag now you’re not making the best use of the diversity receivers, though. It can work well like that, but it would be more beneficial to mount them sideways, so the antennas are arranged left/right rather than behind each other. You can perhaps put two receivers behind each other if it doesn’t fit

 

Thanks Constantin!

Thats a good idea!

I mounted them this way because of the infrared sync on the right side of the receiver. They are not really made for bag use unfortunately..

If I put them behind each other, i would have even less space between the antennas of the different receivers.

Now its maybe five centimeters but then they are directly next to each other.

Can this cause even more problems?

And right now I velcroed them to the side of my bag so they dont slide down, thats important because they are powered via micro-USB on the bottom. They wouldnt last long if they would rest on the USB-Connector in the bag.

And you couldnt see the display all the time. so no way to see of USB-Power stopped working and the battery is running out for example..

 

1 hour ago, Michael Manzke said:

My first thought would be to get a less bulky bag or to attach the receivers on the outer frame. That way you'll also gain space inside the bag. 
Depending on the kind of jobs you do on a regular basis you might want to ask yourself if you really need to care about the IR for syncing. 
Also some right angle TRS connectors seem to be a good idea

Thanks Michael, 

the bag is quite heavy, but I just updated from another bag, which was noch wide enough for the mixer and cant afford another one right now.

If I move the receivers to the outer frame on this bag I have even more weight at the front of the bag, and so more stress on my shoulders.

I dont need too much space inside the bag, as its only holding the receiver.

IR for syncing has helped me a lot so far for documentary work. I always use an app to scan for a free channel group and then sync all of the them to this channel group.

Are there any screw-in right angle TRS-to-XLR-Connectors available, that fit for sony UWP-D?  

[Constantin]

5 hours ago, Sound said:

 

Thanks Constantin!

Thats a good idea!

I mounted them this way because of the infrared sync on the right side of the receiver. They are not really made for bag use unfortunately..

If I put them behind each other, i would have even less space between the antennas of the different receivers.

Now its maybe five centimeters but then they are directly next to each other.

Can this cause even more problems?

And right now I velcroed them to the side of my bag so they dont slide down, thats important because they are powered via micro-USB on the bottom. They wouldnt last long if they would rest on the USB-Connector in the bag.

And you couldnt see the display all the time. so no way to see of USB-Power stopped working and the battery is running out for example..

Well, I‘ll leave the intricacies of mounting the receivers up to you, although they should probably not rest on the USB plug. Velcro can go anywhere... 

Two antennas of different receivers being close together shouldn’t be a problem. But consider that the transmitter is likely going to be in front of you. So I would say that you’re kind of not using your diversity to great effect. The way you‘ve mounted them now it means that they are ideally positioned for transmitters coming from the sides. If it works - fine. 

[Sound]

I looked for diversity antenna placement again and found some hints that they should not be too close (to prevent them from acting as a single antenna) and they can be angled a bit, but I found nothing about their position being in one line or next to each other relative to the transmitter.

it looks like the dropouts can happen anywhere in the room so it doesn't really matter.

https://www.rfvenue.com/blog/2014/12/15/the-myth-of-half-wave-diversity-antenna-placemen

[mark kirchner]

https://www.lectrosonics.com/images/PDFs/wg2000.pdf

[Constantin]

On 6/3/2020 at 12:01 AM, Sound said:

I looked for diversity antenna placement again and found some hints that they should not be too close (to prevent them from acting as a single antenna) and they can be angled a bit, but I found nothing about their position being in one line or next to each other relative to the transmitter.

it looks like the dropouts can happen anywhere in the room so it doesn't really matter.

https://www.rfvenue.com/blog/2014/12/15/the-myth-of-half-wave-diversity-antenna-placemen

 

Well, to be perfectly honest,  can't provide a link to confirm my claim. It is simply an assumption that I have always worked under and which I could seemingly prove in real-life tests. But of course, with rf it's very difficult to come to definitive conclusions one way or another. 

My personal theory was that if both antennas are on the same horizontal line fairly close to each other it would be more likely that both antennas would receive a direct signal in phase with each other. Depending on the diversity mode and the signal combination technique employed by the receiver, this could improve the signal quality. So far, I have fared well with this approach, but of course I never or rarely use another approach.

So as always, YMMV.

[Derek H]

“Bag is quite heavy”  .. oh man try running around chasing a bunch of yahoos with a 788/cl8 and 8x 411a receivers. This does not look like a heavy bag from my perspective. 
 

My advice would be to cool your heels on any other mods or additions and simply do a bunch of work with this setup and then you will know exactly what you want to upgrade or reconfigure. Everyone is now obsessed with running an RF distro in their bag (I think mostly for the Instagram) but for most work you’re going to do with a bag it is overkill.  
 

Especially now that the days of running 3x um400s in the bag for hops and IFB is mostly over there is less interference in the bag itself to deal with and your receivers should be getting most of their useable range just on whips. 
 

 

[Sound]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:53 PM, Derek H said:

“Bag is quite heavy”  .. oh man try running around chasing a bunch of yahoos with a 788/cl8 and 8x 411a receivers. This does not look like a heavy bag from my perspective. 
 

My advice would be to cool your heels on any other mods or additions and simply do a bunch of work with this setup and then you will know exactly what you want to upgrade or reconfigure. Everyone is now obsessed with running an RF distro in their bag (I think mostly for the Instagram) but for most work you’re going to do with a bag it is overkill.  
 

Especially now that the days of running 3x um400s in the bag for hops and IFB is mostly over there is less interference in the bag itself to deal with and your receivers should be getting most of their useable range just on whips. 
 

 

Thanks!

I think I will keep everything as it is for now. I am very happy with the mixpre 10 ii so far and I think I will not find better wireless units than the Sony uwp-d in this price range. Only the bag placing and powering via micro usb is a bit complicated but that's the only trade-off. Thanks for all your help!

[Derek H]

Sounds good. Yes I think your assessment is correct about the wireless. The next level up of professional gear is a wide chasm in terms of price from what you have here. 
 

Yeah I hate dealing with micro USB (looking at you CL12) but if you’ve figured out something that’s working and secure then sounds like you’re good to go. All of those units can also take internal batteries so in the worst case scenario you’ve got a backup plan. Just always have spare batteries available. 
 

For now I’d spend money on a nice microphone or two and all the needed accessories. Buy a MKH50 if you don’t have one. Or a used Schoeps, that’s what I did and I still use it all the time. 
 

 

[Sound]

Thanks! I still have a rode ntg3 with rycote supersoftie. It sounds ok but it's very heavy. (At least for me I thought of the mkh 8060 instead as I need a very small supercardioid just for voices. Why do you recommend the mkh50? It do you know any other small mics with very high directivity?

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

Curious here - not being a wireless user - would putting the five receivers more diagonal from where they are help the diversity physics? Looks like there's room to put them upright yet twist them a bit.

 

Jez

[Sound]

5 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Curious here - not being a wireless user - would putting the five receivers more diagonal from where they are help the diversity physics? Looks like there's room to put them upright yet twist them a bit.

 

Jez

We discussed it here. I think it doesn't make a difference

[Derek H]

Why do I like the MKH50? It sounds good, it's durable, low handling noise, low self noise. It's as close to a standard for dialog recording as it gets. It's not over-priced. All these reasons are why it would be a good place for you to start. There are scenarios where a Schoeps MK41 will sound better but if you didn't have both of them to pick from you probably wouldn't miss it. Buy one and I suspect it will become your main boom mic. Then use your rode for wide shots or outdoors or just as a backup.

[IronFilm]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:43 AM, Derek H said:

Sounds good. Yes I think your assessment is correct about the wireless. The next level up of professional gear is a wide chasm in terms of price from what you have here. 
 

Yeah I hate dealing with micro USB (looking at you CL12) but if you’ve figured out something that’s working and secure then sounds like you’re good to go. All of those units can also take internal batteries so in the worst case scenario you’ve got a backup plan. Just always have spare batteries available. 

Back when I was using Sony wireless as my regular first choice, I did ponder using USB powering but I fear those tiny MicroUSB connectors getting damaged / coming loose so I just put up with the hassle of using heaps of AA rechargeables. Guess if you're planning on sticking with Sonys for the long term, it might be worthwhile getting right angle USB connections and 3D printing little wrap around protectors to clip onto the sides of the Sony Receivers to protect them from bumps?

 

On 6/9/2020 at 7:23 AM, Sound said:

Thanks! I still have a rode ntg3 with rycote supersoftie. It sounds ok but it's very heavy. (At least for me

 

Rode NTG3 is not an abnormally heavy mic at all, perhaps the extra stress and weight is coming from elsewhere?

Does your booming technique need to be improved? Take this course:
https://www.videomantis.com/courses/boom-operator/boom-right-masterclass-with-ken-strain/

Are you using an Alu pole which could be swapped out for a much lighter CF pole? Perhaps switch from a long 5m to a shorter & lighter 3m pole?

I agree with @Derek H about getting yourself a MKH50 (or any other nice hypercardioid) for indoors, as it would be both lighter and a better choice than using shotgun/blimp indoors. 

 

 

  

On 6/9/2020 at 12:47 PM, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Curious here - not being a wireless user - would putting the five receivers more diagonal from where they are help the diversity physics? Looks like there's room to put them upright yet twist them a bit.

He is powering them over USB, thus because of the position of the MicroUSB connector on the Sony receivers, I think it would be difficult to have them set up any other way than that specific positioning he's got there in the photo. 

[kavenzmann]

Hi,

 

I hope it's okay to just follow up on this thread @Sound?

 

I'm not really a professional sound guy. Whatever that means...

Actually, I studied film + videocamera at the university 15 years ago and work as a cameraman for 20 years.

I also do post production for bigger projects, especially Color Grading and Finishing in my home studio.

Nevertheless, sound is often an underestimated art on small crew films/ docos.

That's why I often took care for that and collected a entry collection of equipement, that I want to complete for a small sound bag. 

 

I also freelanced as a sound technician several years at my local broadcast company WDR

and did the whole location sound recording for several long documentaries and shows using traditional booming, M/S and lav techniques.

I very much like stereo recording techniques for documentaries and do some field recording as well. My aim here is to improve the use of location sounds for documentaries as much as possible.

 

Here's what I have already:

 

- MixPre 6 II (just came in!) incl. sound bag that originally fits the SD 7xx series (bag was a gift from a friend and is nice but a little too wide)

  powered via Sony NP-F mount ( https://www.shop-ftt.de/de/batteriespeiseadapter-sd-mixpre-3-62 )

  or USB powerbank

- Sennheiser MKH 8060 shotgun

- Audio Technica BP4029 M/S shotgun

- a modular set of 2x MPB604 amps / 2x cards/ 1x super card/ 1x figure8 form MBHO for indoor booming and stereo recording

- Rode Boompole Pro (535g, 81-300cm length)

- baskets/shockmounts/windprotection from Rycote for most mics and combos (needs some improvement here and there)

- some special cabling and connboxes for the stereo setups and lots of standard XLR cables

- 1x Sennheiser EW100 G3 RF set incl. MKE2 lav upgrade (can also used hardwired), ME2 lav (from the original set)

 

What's missing to complete the bag??

 

I had a gig yesterday, that mirrors the standard sound gig I'll do more often in the near future.

2x camera, 2 x talent that need wireless mics, boom for classic booming, additional ambient recording or unexpected situations.

TC being a problem very often. We use claps as a sync helper, but that is annoying quite often, too.

I do like the overall sound of my new combo very much. Really a serious upgrade over the Zoom H6 and ME66/64 that I used before.

But what I was wondering is how warm the MixPre got inside the bag. I mean really warm. Is that a known issue?

 

I rented another EW100 G3 with MKE2 lav, but had some issues inside the rooms.

The Senni EW100 G3 is not exactly bad, but I don't think it's good enough to buy a second one.

 

I thought of getting the Deity Connect set with 1x 2ch RX, 2x TX and propably 2x TR-X as a future upgrade for camera hops and TC delivery to B-Cam.

Does that sound as a good idea or are there more serious pieces for a comparable pricepoint I should invest in?

I'll not do high budget fiction film production, but doco and small crew TV like gigs.

 

 

[chrismedr]

maybe get a nicer boom pole?

 

as for the G3, as you say they are not exactly bad, but anything that is a serious upgrade is going to be quite a bit more expensive.

maybe the new Deity will be an option - we'll know as soon as they are out.

[Dan Brockett]

I've been using the Deity Connect system for about 8 months now. I will say, tremendous value for the money but they don't work everywhere. I did a shoot in a concrete tilt up warehouse with tons of steel girders and the entire box was lined with Aluminum sheeting. Also near an airport and in an industrial area. Transmitter couldn't get farther than 3' without dropouts in this particular situation, but elsewhere, they have worked well. We ended up using a friends Sennheiser G3 which worked perfectly in the same situation. I strongly recommend having both 2.4Ghz AND some UHF systems, even if they are less than state of the art like some old G3s. I also have a Røde Video Wireless, which has less power than the Connect and even it works really well in most situations but not all. For those times when 2.4Ghz just doesn't work, you need UHF and I also carry three of the Tascam DR10 recorders for when no wireless works as my plan C.

 

I prefer to hire sound pros but like you, in this era of reduced budgets and lots of lower budget live streaming work, when I can't have a sound pro there, I have to make sure I can still record usable audio, it falls on me as the DP to make that happen.

[Dalton Patterson]

32 minutes ago, Dan Brockett said:

in this era of reduced budgets and lots of lower budget live streaming work, when I can't have a sound pro there, I have to make sure I can still record usable audio, it falls on me as the DP to make that happen.

I wrote way of topic. So I will start a new thread. 

[kavenzmann]

That's a total misunderstanding.

I do work as a cinematographer or as a sound technician.

Not both at the same time.

 

Some might think this is a bad idea. Accepted!

 

I want to complete my audio only bag.

[Constantin]

7 hours ago, kavenzmann said:

 

I want to complete my audio only bag.

But if you’re not missing anything how should we know what you need?

You already identified TC as an issue, so why not invest in a TC solution?

 

Regarding wireless options: I have found the Sennheiser G3/4 kit to be a decent entry level option. If you had issues with them, then that’s likely not something related to the brand. It’s more likely related to the location and/or frequency range. So getting another set in a different range might help. 
That said there a few new kids on the block, like Deity or Rode, but I have never played with them, so can’t tell you much about them. 
 

[kavenzmann]

Personally I thought the Senni G3s are really outdated and people generally switched to digital wireless.

But mine has worked just fine for some years and a second one with another frequency would be an easy upgrade. These guys have gone cheap lately.

 

Would the MKE2 (gold) be a good lav option? I think it's a good idea to have identical lavs and not totally different ones?

 

If I go with 2x G3 wireless, I'd still miss the TC boxes. Typically there's my mixer/recorder plus A cam snd B cam.

Any advice what to get here?

Can the MixPre be the TC master?

[DanieldH]

2 hours ago, kavenzmann said:

Personally I thought the Senni G3s are really outdated and people generally switched to digital wireless.

But mine has worked just fine for some years and a second one with another frequency would be an easy upgrade. These guys have gone cheap lately.

 

Would the MKE2 (gold) be a good lav option? I think it's a good idea to have identical lavs and not totally different ones?

 

If I go with 2x G3 wireless, I'd still miss the TC boxes. Typically there's my mixer/recorder plus A cam snd B cam.

Any advice what to get here?

Can the MixPre be the TC master?

G3 are still a good option in the budget field, though they have their caveats (bandwidth, "key test", TX power, fixed antenna, noisefloor to name a few), but any system does, even expensive ones.

When it comes to the MKE-2 (gold), i never liked their sound and never read anybody here who does. When I use a G2/G3 I don't use the MKE-2. I think it is a really overpriced (almost useless) spare part, in relation to the price of an EW112 set. Compare them to a DPA4060, Sanken COS11, Sennheiser MKE-1 Deitymic W-lav Pro/Micro.

I would buy lavs I like, rather than completing a "matched quartet" I don't like.

 

Quote

Any advice what to get here?

BP-TRX could be a future option for you, especially if you want some lavs compatible to G3s anyway. But again, caveats, and not even out there, yet.

There is ton's of comparisons for TC boxes on YT.

 

Mixpre and TC: Some yes, some no, some via "audio out". Check their specs and generation.

 

 

[Constantin]

I think g3/4 is just fine for a lot of work. If you enjoy the sound of mp3 audio combined with limited range then get one of the lower end digital wireless. The Sennheiser‘s have withstood the test of time, are rocksolid and sound ok. Pricewise really decent. Plus you can easily repurpose them later. If you move to high end wireles one day, you can use the Sennheiser as a hop or use the transmitter for sending audio to the iem receivers and so on. I find thos quite versatile. But if you need the latest shiniest toy then get something else