Feeding two 8-track machines

[RPSharman]

Currently I record a mix to my 744T and mix/ISO tracks via Boom Recorder.  Although BR very rarely fails, a weak link seems to be that for some reason one of my drives will un-mount randomly.  Not always while in use.  It will then re-mount.  It's never the same drive, the same cable, the same port, so it's a bit frustrating.  BR aborts the recording rather than continuing on the remaining drives.  Frustrating.

So many jobs now have larger ensemble casts and multiple cameras, that the ISO recording has become less of a back-up and more of a necessity.  For this reason I am looking at the 788T to replace the 744T, but still use BR because I like the BIG meters and I like having a computer on my cart.  It will then become a truly redundant back-up.

Here's the problem.  How do I get two sets of pre-fade outputs from a mixer with only one set of pre-fade outputs?  The FF800 has line outs, but if that piece of gear fails then the whole system goes down.  Same if I load up the 788T with all sorts of output cables to the FF800.  The whole purpose of 2 machines for me is redundancy, so why tie one to the other?

I can have a snake made that will 'Y' the output from the mixer's pre-fade outputs, but there is always much discussion about signal degradation.  I really don't want to add a clunky bunch of DAs.

What are your thoughts?

Robert

[Philip Perkins]

Make the hard split Y cables.  Make them well and they'll last the rest of your career.  I like the idea of a hard split like that for redundancy--one system can't take the other down.  There won't be any signal degradation.

Re your FW problems--what order do you have your firewire gear in?  Have you had your computer checked?

Philip Perkins

[Sergio Sanmiguel]

I like this one:

http://www.radialeng.com/re-8ox.htm

[RPSharman]

Make the hard split Y cables.  Make them well and they'll last the rest of your career.  I like the idea of a hard split like that for redundancy--one system can't take the other down.  There won't be any signal degradation.

Re your FW problems--what order do you have your firewire gear in?  Have you had your computer checked?

Philip Perkins

Thanks for the split suggestion.  I was looking for support there.

It's the USB drives.  My firewire ONLY feeds the RME FF800.  I have a powered USB hub - Belkin - No problems in the past.  It's never consistently the same drive or cable or port.  I have had my current MacBook since last fall.  2 of the drives are brand new, and one is a year or so old.  I suppose I should call Apple to see if there's an issue.

Robert

[David Waelder]

Here's the problem.  How do I get two sets of pre-fade outputs from a mixer with only one set of pre-fade outputs?  

Ordinarily I wouldn't answer your question with such an expensive suggestion but I just now got back from Valencia with a PSC Solice for evaluation. The capabilities are fresh in my mind.

The Solice has eight output busses that can be fed either pre or post fader PLUS eight individual channel outputs, also pre or post fader.

So, if you had a Solice - not cheap but not expensive for a purpose-built mixer - you would be able to accomplish just what you propose.

I can't really recommend that you spend all your money on new gear when the market is so grim. But I thought others might face a similar challenge and be interested.

David Waelder

(edit to add picture)

[Alan H. Chang]

An ISO splitter would work.  Probably from Whirlwind or the one Sergio posted.  No matter what, the signal would be split to two places safely.  Also, making a solid Y-cable wouldn't hurt the degradation.  Just like what Philip said, good ones will last a long time.

[RPSharman]

I think, David, that this recorder will be out of my reach for a while.  It is great, and living near PSC has afforded me many peeks at this very cool piece of gear.

After a little research, I think it is quite likely that my drives are too hot, or perhaps having two or three external drives on line might be demanding too much power from the hub.  The failure has occurred during warm conditions, and the drives live above the FF800, which gets quite hot on warm days.

I will reconfigure a little, and look at a new hub which comes with a higher output power supply.  Money is a bit tight, I think, so I will try to get back to my setup's former reliability, with which I was very satisfied.

Robert

[John Blankenship]

If both of the devices you're feeding have balanced inputs, then IMO a simple "Y" cable is by far your best choice.  The chance that one input would affect the other -- even if one of the devices goes down -- is extremely small.  The odds are probably greater that a producer might get drunk and smash a golf cart into your sound rig.  Adding more connections and components into the signal flow has a greater potential to degrade the signal than a simple splitter feeding two balanced inputs on quality devices.  

The one variant to this is if you develop a ground loop.  This is, of course, quite easy to ferret out -- if it adds hum, there's a ground loop (or maybe it doesn't know the words).

Try the simple splitters and listen to the signal through each output of both devices.  If you don't hear any problems, there aren't any.

An isolating splitter box would be a good choice if you were splitting signals to be sent a great length, or to unknown devices.  In your case, "Y" cables make more sense (IMO).

Every once in a while, life CAN be easy.

John B.

[Philip Perkins]

Thanks for the split suggestion.  I was looking for support there.

It's the USB drives.  My firewire ONLY feeds the RME FF800.  I have a powered USB hub - Belkin - No problems in the past.  It's never consistently the same drive or cable or port.  I have had my current MacBook since last fall.  2 of the drives are brand new, and one is a year or so old.  I suppose I should call Apple to see if there's an issue.

Robert

Not questioning yr experience, but if it was me I'd go all firewire, interface and drives.  (Unless yr computer is te MacBook that doesn't speak FW.)

Philip Perkins

[RPSharman]

Not questioning yr experience, but if it was me I'd go all firewire, interface and drives.  (Unless yr computer is te MacBook that doesn't speak FW.)

Philip Perkins

It has FW, but the end of the road is a single input to the FF800 - I think I had a thought that having everything daisy-chaining to such an important component at the end was a bit risky.  With USB, I can also hand off drives without breaking the chain.  I suppose I can use a FW hub, but then what am I gaining?  Is FW really that much more reliable?  Also, would enough power come from the bus to power 2 portable drives?

Robert

[graham]

I don't know/ remember enough of what BJ from Metric Halo said to be technically accurate. The gist was, USB is a standard controlled by a few manufacturers but FW has more play and variations and is dependant on the product developer ie greater chance for error. I use 160 gig gtech mini HD(bus powered) via USB and have done 20 minute takes of 18 tracks at 24/48 with no issue in BR.

FWIW I am using custom 18" canare Y cables feeding a 788t and a MH ULN8 for the past week with no issues.

[Kevin Sorensen]

Hey Robert,

This may be worth looking into, I dunno. $5495. 

Used ( consignment ) @ Location Sound Corp.

I would definitely snap it up, but i am covered in that area.

KKS

[RPSharman]

Kevin,

Saw that board at LSC a few weeks ago.  Tempting.  But I think a custom cable might be a better solution than a new $5500 board.

Robert

[Philip Perkins]

I don't know/ remember enough of what BJ from Metric Halo said to be technically accurate. The gist was, USB is a standard controlled by a few manufacturers but FW has more play and variations and is dependant on the product developer ie greater chance for error. I use 160 gig gtech mini HD(bus powered) via USB and have done 20 minute takes of 18 tracks at 24/48 with no issue in BR.

FWIW I am using custom 18" canare Y cables feeding a 788t and a MH ULN8 for the past week with no issues.

All the advice I've gotten says the opposite!  That FW was MORE reliable for recording than USB.  I guess I believe that, in that MOTU and MH etc have to pay royalties to Apple to use FW, and USB is a public standard.  The kind of behavior described is the reason why I was warned off USB for mulitrack.  That said, the Sadie LRX2 is all USB all the time, so go figure.  What's worked best for me re FW chain has been computer>interface>drive 1> drive 2 (and in desperate situations, another interface out on the end, aggregated, although it makes me nervous).

That's a good price for an M8, but the thing is a beast--fairly large if you are used to a Cooper 106 etc.

Philip Perkins

[RPSharman]

What's worked best for me re FW chain has been computer>interface>drive 1> drive 2

Philip Perkins

I'd be happy with this too, but the FF800 cannot be looped through - Single FW input.

[bcopenhagen]

My solution may lean towards the complicated side...

I've got the rig you're thinking about (788T / Boom Recorder), and I split digitally using a separate A/D converter:  Lucid ADA8824.

Sonosax feeds analog to the Lucid; Lucid feeds AES to 788T and lightpipe to a MOTU / BR setup.

Yes, it adds another component, and it adds it to a "Can't Fail" position.  So far no failures, and if something cataclysmic happens and all the recordings are blown to useless bits, I've always been prepared to own up to it, and tell the heads of state that we'll have to do it again.

I will add that if I rebuild in the future, I will be seriously entertaining the Y-cable splits.  Why?  To decrease the potential for device failure and to decrease the dependency on powered devices, and the added complications of feeding them the power they demand (ie, the Lucid is an AC thing).

Brian

[Twade]

3 outputs - line, FW and AES

DC powered

word clock & smpte

i hear the preamps are killer

[Philip Perkins]

take alook at A@H 14.4. 2

the number of different outs is tremendous and could serve you  distribute your signal - 1500 us or even less

AHs sound good (to me--I've had one in the studio since the current 14/4 form factor came out), a little more effort needed to make it it a location board (have to roll your own talkback, DC power if you need it etc) but having both an AH and a Mackie I prefer the sound (and EQ) of the AH.  The AH has full sized faders, too.

Philip Perkins

[graham]

Twade,

  I use the uln8 and it is great and the pres are killer. Despite that, the point of splitting is the "what if". If one unit goes the other will cover. I hand in boomrecorder files. If the computer crashes, I still have 788 isos. One could route aes out of box to a separate recorder and still have the sound, but again, if the uln goes out for some oddball reason, you still lose the take

[studiomprd]

I'm going to jump in here with a vote for passive splitters (transformers) over "Y" cables.  while the "Y" cords may work very well in permanent or semi-permanent set-ups, the transformer options assure the best possible signal path with isolation and maximum noise and interference rejection, and the best tolerance to mis-matches among components. this is especially important in high-z  (unbalanced)  and in balanced-unbalanced situations where the transformer "balun" is most important.