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2 hours ago, Olle Sjostrom said:

Weird how it's so different. Some productions never really stopped either. No requirements of any kind except wash hands, keep a distance (as if that's possible on a shoot)

Yeah, well the exception I mentioned, only is being held up in public transportation here. To quote our government's website about it:

Under the current rules in the Netherlands, it is not necessary to wear face masks in your own personal time. Public transport is an exception. As of 1 June, the use of a non-medical face mask is required when you travel by public transport, since it is not possible to stay far enough apart in public transport. It should be noted that limited scientific evidence is available regarding how effective these face masks are.

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General purpose medical gloves have no hope of lasting more than fifteen minutes on set. I was DP'ing and mixing sound on a bare bones shoot for a freelance crewing service in Des Moines, Iowa. Director and producer dialed into my Zoom feed for monitoring and direction. I took my temperature, wore a mask and wore gloves (for about 15 minutes).  Mask mandates are by community in the States but all production companies i have worked with the past 60 days require distancing, masks, temperature monitoring and frequent sanitizing.

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5 hours ago, Olle Sjostrom said:

In Sweden there's been no discussion of wearing masks. Masks have been for hospital workers so that they don't get infected. I know comparing Sweden an the US is kind of moot, but the consensus over here is that masks wouldn't protect the general public, because if the masks are to be effective at all you'd need to switch mask every 30 minutes, unless you have a medical grade mask with filters, then you'd only have to change filters maybe every 2 hours, and that's pretty hard for people to handle I guess. Social distancing is far more effective then. Just giving some other perspective. Again, comparing US to Sweden (as we Swedes are more used to social distancing since we are gloomy people) may not be the best comparison, but hey..

This is the sort of talk quoted by USA people who are determined to be irresponsible about masking up in public.  I'm very glad that Sweden and NL are doing well vs the virus, but the USA is drowning in it right now, and we need to do anything we can about it to keep it from crashing pretty much everything.  The idea that a mask isn't effective after 30 min, whether that is actually true in any sense or situation, is an irrelevant small-bore issue compared with trying to control the spread of virus via human breath.  There is no actual way that NOT wearing a mask will help control the disease better than wearing ANY sort of mask, even a bandanna.   We here are in an ALL OF THE ABOVE phase, mostly due to people believing for the last 3 months that they could get away with behaviour described above with no consequences.  Those consequences are on full display in the most conservative and mask-resistant areas of the USA right now.

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2 hours ago, PMC said:

General purpose medical gloves have no hope of lasting more than fifteen minutes on set.

 

I've had good luck with disposable nitrile gloves. they come in various thicknesses. Because of my background, I use gloves from Park Tool (a solid company that sells to bike mechanics). Some of the off brands seem to vary in quality. There are probably plenty of other cheaper brands that are just as good, but Park's gloves have been consistently good. No, they won't last forever. Yes, they do hold up a lot better than thin latex and PVC disposable gloves. About US$25 for 100 pair. Looks like they're kind of hard to find right now. 

 

What types and brands of disposable gloves are other people using successfully?

 

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3 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

This is the sort of talk quoted by USA people who are determined to be irresponsible about masking up in public.  I'm very glad that Sweden and NL are doing well vs the virus, but the USA is drowning in it right now, and we need to do anything we can about it to keep it from crashing pretty much everything.  The idea that a mask isn't effective after 30 min, whether that is actually true in any sense or situation, is an irrelevant small-bore issue compared with trying to control the spread of virus via human breath.  There is no actual way that NOT wearing a mask will help control the disease better than wearing ANY sort of mask, even a bandanna.   We here are in an ALL OF THE ABOVE phase, mostly due to people believing for the last 3 months that they could get away with behaviour described above with no consequences.  Those consequences are on full display in the most conservative and mask-resistant areas of the USA right now.

Believe me I do not mean to judge or tell anyone else how to do their business against the virus, and I would never question a government or scientists recommendations or guidelines on how to not spread and not get infected. If we were told to wear masks I wouldn't question it at all. I'm just pointing out that I think it's interesting that there's so little universal consensus on how to battle this. And that makes it so hard to know what is right or not. 

Sweden is doing fairly well, yes, but the elderly have really been hit hard. Our elderly care is mainly privatized and low income workers have been spreading the virus, probably. When the virus broke out the authorities said to stay at home if you felt sick, but those people have no our very low sick pay (which we are lucky enough to have over here), so they'd come to work anyway. So yes it looks like we're doing fine but we have a lot more elderly people dead  than many other countries I believe. 

 

I really feel for you in the US, the numbers are devastating and I can't imagine what you and your families, friends, businesses and everyone are going through. Take care and hold on 

 

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I'm sorry, but where I live (the USA) there is broad consensus that wearing masks is the single most effective thing an individual can do to combat the spread of the virus, short of never going out at all.  We've reached a point now, with the sunsetting of various kinds of governmental financial support for individuals, that a lot more people are going to have to return to doing some work outside the home in order to live.  In that case masks are the only real defense we have at the moment.

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On 7/19/2020 at 12:55 AM, daniel said:

I think masks are in some ways equatable with bicycle helmets. They look like they may do something but when you dig into to it - not so much.

Kinda counterintuitively, compulsory helmet wearing laws results in worse health outcomes (the law of unintended consequences strikes once again!).
https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/counterintuitive-argument-against-bicycle-helmet-laws
https://www.wsj.com/articles/do-bike-helmet-laws-do-more-harm-than-good-1444662837
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-05/why-bike-helmet-laws-don-t-work
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/8669773/Bicycle-helmets-should-not-be-compulsory-say-doctors.html
https://irishcycle.com/2016/09/23/6-reasons-bicycle-helmets-shouldnt-be-any-governments-policy/
https://www.icebike.org/bike-helmet-laws/
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/article/20171126-Chris-Boardman-0
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/03/cycle_helmets_should_not_be_compulsory.html
Unfortunately I live in one of the rare countries which has a nationwide ban against cycling helmetlessly. 

Crazily, it seems wearing a wig may keep you safer in some aspects than wearing a helmet!
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2893122&page=1

Now before those angry replies get started trying to argue against the science, let me be very clear: I am not saying it is a bad decision for you personally to choose to wear a helmet (not at all, you keep on doing what you choose to do! I fully support that). Rather I'm saying it is clearly a bad idea for there to be compulsory helmet wearing laws
 

10 hours ago, PMC said:

General purpose medical gloves have no hope of lasting more than fifteen minutes on set. I was DP'ing and mixing sound on a bare bones shoot for a freelance crewing service in Des Moines, Iowa. Director and producer dialed into my Zoom feed for monitoring and direction. I took my temperature, wore a mask and wore gloves (for about 15 minutes).  Mask mandates are by community in the States but all production companies i have worked with the past 60 days require distancing, masks, temperature monitoring and frequent sanitizing.

15 minutes? I'm shocked your gloves lasted such a short time. 
Perhaps you need to source better quality gloves? 

During the harshest levels of New Zealand's lockdown (we had one of the worst lockdowns in the world, very strict), I kept on working but doing sorting in a food warehouse (which at least qualified as one of the few "essential services"). Nothing fancy, just chucking around big heavy boxes of food, and my disposable gloves I thought were fairly average run of the mill standard gloves. Yet even under those fairly heavy duty conditions of physical exercise, I found that a pair would usually last me an entire shift. (only occasionally would I get a rip at some point during the shift, and need to replace them, and I think I never ever had a rip happen twice during a shift)

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I definitely need to source more robust gloves. These were clear nitrile non-sterile medical worker gloves. I also need to find extra large. I have big paws with sausage fingers. I have belgian ancestry, lol.

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Now before those angry replies get started trying to argue against the science, let me be very clear: I am not saying it is a bad decision for you personally to choose to wear a helmet (not at all, you keep on doing what you choose to do! I fully support that). Rather I'm saying it is clearly a bad idea for there to be compulsory helmet wearing laws

 

I clicked on a few of the links (admittedly not all of them; some were behind paywalls, etc), but I must have missed the science. I did see some ideological arguments from people who want to view things a certain way, some people bending stats that don't appear responsibly analyzed, and some citations of "research" from bogus groups such as the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation. Could be I missed something.

 

Here's what an Australian statistics prof who studies injury data had to say a few years ago:

=====

Did Australian helmet law “kill” UK cycling to work?

Posted on 
There’s a recently published article in The Conversation about common misinterpretations of research. I strongly disagree with their take on helmet legislation and I have even stronger concerns they cite the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation as a reliable source for information. I have communicated my concerns to the article’s authors privately.
[Rest of the (long and mathy but interesting) article:]

https://injurystats.wordpress.com/tag/bicycle-helmet-research-foundation/

=====

There are other interesting related articles on his now seemingly defunct blog. 

 

 

And here's what's widely regarded as a decent meta-analysis of "21 studies of the effects of mandatory bicycle helmet legislation on injuries."

 

Recommend or mandate? A systematic review and meta-analysis of the effects of mandatory bicycle helmet legislation

[A couple snippets from the abstract:]

The summary effect of mandatory bicycle helmet legislation for all cyclists on head injuries is a statistically significant reduction by 20% (95% confidence interval [-27; -13]). Larger effects were found for serious head injury (-55%; 95% confidence interval; [-78; -8]). Among children, larger effects were found when legislation applies to all cyclists than when it applies to children only. There is no clear indication of the results being affected by publication bias.

[snip]

In summary, mandatory bicycle helmet legislation can be expected to reduce head injury among crash involved cyclists. Some adverse effects may occur, but will not necessarily be large or long-lasting. People who may be deterred from cycling, are among those with the highest injury risk and the smallest health effects from cycling. If the overall goal is to improve safety for all cyclists and to increase cycling, mandatory bicycle helmet legislation should be supplemented by other measures, especially improved bicycle infrastructure.

Rest of the abstract and links to related articles:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30173006/

 

 

There is definitely controversy about helmet laws, but it's not clear at all that they're a bad idea. And more to our discussion, I think there are parallels between opposition to compulsory helmet wearing and opposition to compulsory mask wearing. And I gotta say, some of the opposition to masks seems to come from the same circles of people who've underestimated the effects of COVID-19 from the get go.

 

One notorious example comes from Richard Epstein, a senior fellow at the conservative Hoover Institute and also a law-school prof. Back in March, he calculated that the US would see up to 500 deaths from COVID-19. And from that number, he spun an argument about what the appropriate (and minimal) response to the virus should be. A week later, he upped his estimate:

 

"In my column last week, I predicted that the world would eventually see about 50,000 deaths from the novel coronavirus, and the United States about 500. These two numbers are clearly not in sync. If the first number holds, the total US deaths should be about 4 to 5 percent of that total, or about 2,000–2,500 deaths."

His blog/column:

https://www.hoover.org/research/coronavirus-overreaction

 

 At this point in the crisis, Epstein's estimate of US deaths was off by a factor of about 60, i.e., he was short 141,000 deaths. And we're not done yet. In March, a statistics prof friend of mine who studies deathrate reporting and stats said, charitably, that Epstein was clearly BSing with numbers to buttress his idealogical point. My friend thought the number of deaths would sadly be much much higher (I can't recall if he offered an estimate) and thought Epstein wasn't making an honest argument.

 

So while there isn't universal political or ideological concensus on the benefit of wearing masks, there does appear to be solid scientific and medical concensus. Here are two recent pieces from authoritative sources with citations/links for more info, and aimed at a general audience:

 

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

CDC calls on Americans to wear masks to prevent COVID-19 spread

JAMA editorial reviews latest science, while case study shows masks prevented COVID spread

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

 

And finally, an article written for a general audience with specific reasonable recommendations:

Considerations for Wearing Cloth Face Coverings

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html

 

 

Masks are a drag. Masks work. I want to get some work done. I don't want people to die. I'm wearing masks. 

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15 hours ago, Jim Feeley said:

 

I've had good luck with disposable nitrile gloves. they come in various thicknesses. Because of my background, I use gloves from Park Tool (a solid company that sells to bike mechanics). Some of the off brands seem to vary in quality. There are probably plenty of other cheaper brands that are just as good, but Park's gloves have been consistently good. No, they won't last forever. Yes, they do hold up a lot better than thin latex and PVC disposable gloves. About US$25 for 100 pair. Looks like they're kind of hard to find right now. 

 

What types and brands of disposable gloves are other people using successfully?

 

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Excellent gloves. Still need to keep them clean.

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If you thought that wearing a mask or bike helmet you would be be fully protected from any kind of mis-hap, you’d be badly mistaken. But if you thought that it will protect you and others to a certain degree and that you will need to take further precautions, then it‘ll be quite helpful. Both helmet and mask. 
 

with regards to masks and viruses, I think that only the opinion of three kinds of people matter: 

 

i) virologist

ii) epedemiologist

iii) don’t know their name, but they actually undertake studies in the effectiveness of masks. 
All if these three groups wholeheartedly agree (as far as I have read) that wearing a mask is indeed the single most effective measure to fight this virus. 
Everyone else’s opinion, including that of any odd doctor, is irrelevant. 
 

Gloves in the other hand do more damage than good if worn for longer than a few minutes. 
 

on my current set, thankfully they take this very seriously. We have to wear masks (simple cotton ones) at all times, even outside and even when we are keeping distances. When I‘m wiring someone I have to put on a ffp2 mask (I don’t know if that is a known standard in the US, it’s the second highest class of disposable masks), and gloves. When I‘m done with one person I put on fresh gloves for the next person. Afterwards I dispose of the mask as well. 
We have an extra person on set who checks for our distances to each other and makes sure we adhere to the Covid-rules. And there’s another person whose job it is to continually disinfect every surface and handle and table and whatever throughout the day. 
I feel like that’s a very prudent way of approaching this, even though legally they could do a lot less. 

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24 minutes ago, Constantin said:

If you thought that wearing a mask or bike helmet you would be be fully protected from any kind of mis-hap, you’d be badly mistaken. But if you thought that it will protect you and others to a certain degree and that you will need to take further precautions, then it‘ll be quite helpful. Both helmet and mask. 
 

with regards to masks and viruses, I think that only the opinion of three kinds of people matter: 

 

i) virologist

ii) epedemiologist

iii) don’t know their name, but they actually undertake studies in the effectiveness of masks. 
All if these three groups wholeheartedly agree (as far as I have read) that wearing a mask is indeed the single most effective measure to fight this virus. 
Everyone else’s opinion, including that of any odd doctor, is irrelevant. 
 

Gloves in the other hand do more damage than good if worn for longer than a few minutes. 
 

on my current set, thankfully they take this very seriously. We have to wear masks (simple cotton ones) at all times, even outside and even when we are keeping distances. When I‘m wiring someone I have to put on a ffp2 mask (I don’t know if that is a known standard in the US, it’s the second highest class of disposable masks), and gloves. When I‘m done with one person I put on fresh gloves for the next person. Afterwards I dispose of the mask as well. 
We have an extra person on set who checks for our distances to each other and makes sure we adhere to the Covid-rules. And there’s another person whose job it is to continually disinfect every surface and handle and table and whatever throughout the day. 
I feel like that’s a very prudent way of approaching this, even though legally they could do a lot less. 

Thanks for sharing this Constantin. So no point in even trying sanitise gloves (with isopropyl) just wear a new pair for each wiring? Is production supplying all the PPE being used by you and your department? I can imagine it is even trickier to do a quickly adjust of a noisy placement now – have you changed much in the way personal mics are being worn? Is anyone taking temperatures?

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5 hours ago, daniel said:

Thanks for sharing this Constantin. So no point in even trying sanitise gloves (with isopropyl) just wear a new pair for each wiring? Is production supplying all the PPE being used by you and your department? I can imagine it is even trickier to do a quickly adjust of a noisy placement now – have you changed much in the way personal mics are being worn? Is anyone taking temperatures?


yes, new gloves for everything, even a small placement correction, although I am involving the actors more now and ask them to place the lav in the first place, wherever possible and later corrections, too. This was something production asked me to do, to minimise contact even further. 
They provide gloves, masks, face shields, disinfectant everywhere, etc., so there‘s no issue there. Make-up and wardrobe have to put on new gloves everytime they come to set for final touches. Anyone entering the set has to wear one of those FFP2 masks the whole time. 
Sanitizing gloves is not that easy, it takes fairly long for them to dry, so it’s also quicker to put on new gloves

I had to argue a little bit with the company to be allowed to still wire everyone and they agreed, but I am prioritizing lavs less. If I get the feeling the scene works well on the boom, I leave the lav as is. If I need the lav, I‘ll have it in place already and either it works well or I‘ll just need a quick adjustment. 
 

There‘s no temperature taking on our set, and rightly so, I believe. We were all required to take a test a few days before production started, but I feel like both measures are only useful to ease tension. On your way out from the test you could already be infected, or indeed before you even went in, and it’s only a snapshot anyway. But it could theoretically catch someone who has it, but doesn’t know. But we’re now in our third week and there were plenty of opportunities to get infected by now.
Temperature might be more useful, I don’t really know. If you do have a temperature you‘d probably know anyway and it would be too late, too. You‘d have already infected some people. 
And these forehead thermometers are really lame, too, most don’t seem to compensate for the forehead offset. They have them at our Kindergarten and the kids regularly have temps of 34 or 35 degrees (Celsius). They would probably be dead with 34... 

 

 

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On 7/20/2020 at 2:06 PM, Olle Sjostrom said:

Sweden is doing fairly well 


Um.  You may want to check that again, unless what you meant is “doing well” showing the rest of the world what not to do?  No offense, but it’s clear than not wearing masks is 100% the wrong way to handle this.
 

Those new set protocols sound like a real pain!  I think I should just get a dome for the sound cart and live in there all day, maskless, and let the third wire...  Actually that’s not very different from now haha!

 

I’m a little late but I think bike helmets are a great metaphor for this.  Some folks learn how to bike safely and defensively, and others just wear helmets and consider themselves protected.  (Those details everyone’s quibbling over fit the metaphor perfectly.)

 

Dan Izen

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I’m not saying I know what’s right or not, it seems that there is no general, universal, consensus around wearing masks or not. Case in point, in Sweden, no governments are telling people to use masks in public. On the contrary, if people are wearing masks they could be viewed as taking resources from the hospitals where the supply on those things is short. 

 

And Sweden is doing fairly well, given that we don’t use masks in public. Again, the consensus and general view here is that masks don’t help more than distancing. But, ymmv, and I was also clear in stating that. In Sweden, distancing as a strategy works better because we are not a crowded country as many others and we have systems in place to keep people at home (sick pay and unemployment safety and so forth, social security). 
 

I absolutely think you should wear masks! I was just saying that it’s interesting that there doesn’t seem to be a universal understanding of the importance of masks. Which is interesting, be it right or wrong. 

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On 7/27/2020 at 9:34 PM, Olle Sjostrom said:

 

I absolutely think you should wear masks! I was just saying that it’s interesting that there doesn’t seem to be a universal understanding of the importance of masks.


No, that’s not interesting, because that’s only politicians and populists who argue about this. Scientists all agree (let’s say 99% of them do) that masks are indeed pretty effective, even homemade ones that don’t take anything away from professional medical workers. 
 

Here are some links to support that. Or you can hundreds more hy googling this. I found only one study that disgreed and it was retracted. 
 

So the evidence is clear and that is really all that should be said about this. Who cares about the politicians. 
 

https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/efficacy-facemasks-coronavirus.php
 

http://www.healthdata.org/infographic/covid19-mask-usage-meta-analysis

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-and-face-masks-to-wear-or-not-to-wear#1.-Masks-offer-no-protection-to-the-wearer
 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/21/880832213/yes-wearing-masks-helps-heres-why?t=1596051571320
 

 

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Thank you Constantin.  Yes.  Awesome links, thanks for digging those up.

 

I don’t know what to tell virus-deniers anymore.  Masks are the best thing that normal people can do.  As pointed out the only ones arguing against that are non-scientists.  It’s people with anti-human agendas (evil), or dummies who support them (ignorant).  Sweden is #1 for per capita deaths, and it’s not a crowded country.  Irrefutable evidence, yet some still refute.  It’s a failed experiment, so just pick up the pieces and get in line with the rest of us. I have a warm spot for Sweden since they took in many Jewish refugees during the 40s, but that “no mask” thing is the wrong call. Just like it is when *anyone* says so!  

 

And hey Olle - I don’t know you but from your posts you seem like a nice guy.  I took great shock from your statement about Sweden doing pretty good, and I feel it’s essential to address that it’s actually not.  If you have any links or info that refutes what I’ve said, please post them!

 

As I sit at home I think about working people who have had to wear masks for hours per day, and it sounds just awful.  I understand the reluctance!  Americans are so obsessed with one’s image that covering it seems to make it hard for some to feel American.  Or something.  Think of the lipstick sales!
 

I’m not looking forward to wearing it for fourteen hours per day, but I will and I will not question it.  I will never let the mask fall below my nose.  I will wear contacts so I don’t have glasses that fog.  It’s just what one does during a pandemic!  (Unless one wishes to never end the pandemic and destabilize a nation.)
 

Apologies to Jeff and the board if I’m being inflammatory or trollish; I’ll delete stuff if you tell me to!

 

Dan Izen

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12 hours ago, Constantin said:


...because that’s only politicians and populists who argue about this. Scientists all agree (let’s say 99% of them do) that masks are indeed pretty effective, even homemade ones that don’t take anything away from professional medical workers. 

 

In Sweden, politicians have actually stayed out of the discussions and are mainly working politically to give funds to health care or other instances that needs it.

However, our "Folkhälsomyndigheten", Public Health Authority, are doctors and physicians and they give out recommendations to our government and our government listens and heed their advice. 

 

on WHO's site, the World Health Organization, there's this statement about masks: 

 

Quote

 

"However, the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection or source control, and other personal and community level measures should also be adopted to suppress transmission of respiratory viruses. Whether or not masks are used, compliance with hand hygiene, physical distancing and other infection prevention and control (IPC) measures are critical to prevent human-tohuman transmission of COVID-19." 

...
"Many countries have recommended the use of fabric masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider (see below)."

 

 

And thus, if our country was to recommend people to wear masks, maybe there'd be increased number of people in the streets, and social distancing is far more effective in battling the disease, it seems. So I wouldn't say that ALL scientists agree about masks. And this is the consensus in Sweden; there's no consensus on masks. If my country, government, friend, parent, boss tells me to wear a mask, I will. No doubt. But as for now wearing a mask is not compulsory. 

 

I still think this is interesting. I wish we in Sweden made a decision on this.

 

10 hours ago, Izen Ears said:

And hey Olle - I don’t know you but from your posts you seem like a nice guy.  I took great shock from your statement about Sweden doing pretty good, and I feel it’s essential to address that it’s actually not.  If you have any links or info that refutes what I’ve said, please post them!

 

In doing pretty good I meant a lot of other things than numbers. I know I'm going to look like a lunatic but read me out... In Sweden, we report every death RELATED to Covid. Even the deaths that aren't directly connected to Covid-19. For instance, a huge chunk of deaths have happened to people over 80 years old with underlying diseases, like cancer, heart failure, diabetes etc etc. Many of those cases have had multiple illnesses before Covid. I don't know how other countries report deaths or cases, but journalists (at least in Sweden..) have reported that deaths in elderly homes for example weren't reported as Covid-19 deaths, and since then the numbers increased. Because now more people were being reported. So that might not have changed the actual cases, only the cases that were actually reported. Numbers. 

And the cases increased because we were late on testing, and that's truly a shame! We were not in lockdown, so when people could test themselves, they went out and did it, and so the numbers increased. 

Norway, Denmark and Finland all locked down. So all those people who would be tested probably didn't.. I don't know.

Another reason for the numbers being high is that we have a national holiday week (winter sports break). Stockholm had week 9, which was when Italy and Austria had their worst period, and so a large number of Stockholm residents came home from Europe that time and the virus came to Sweden in large numbers. I don't know about norway or denmark or other northern countries. 

 

During the pandemic, we've had our schools open and the hospitals haven't been overrun. Unemployment is higher than it's ever been, sure, but our country as a whole isn't in ruin yet. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just saying. Our strategy is different, and I don't know if it is right or wrong really. But I'm sure that if we are indeed wrong we will change our ways. To each their own, I feel.

 

Here are some videos where Anders Tegnell, the doctor in charge of Sweden right now is answering questions.. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9wso6bEAc

 

And another one from the same person, asking another doctor: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwQpg62Kflg&t=362s

 

I think the interviewer is asking good questions and the people are allowed to answer in full and honestly. I don't think UnHerd is associated with any big media.. 

 

EDIT: 
Here's another: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxLDJJb1_KI

 

 

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14 hours ago, Olle Sjostrom said:

On WHO's site, the World Health Organization, there's this statement about masks: 


That quote is from an older paper, they now have guidelines on the website, which sound similar, but put a slightly different emphasis on things: 

 

Masks should be used as part of a comprehensive strategy of measures to suppress transmission and save lives; the use of a mask alone is not sufficient to provide an adequate level of protection against COVID-19. You should also maintain a minimum physical distance of at least 1 metre from others, frequently clean your hands and avoid touching your face and mask.“. 

 

Here is the link to their FAQ on masks: 

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-on-covid-19-and-masks

 

Also bear in mind that the WHO is extremely cautious in their recommendations. Remember how long they needed to call this a pandemic. 
 

It is certainly also true that masks alone cannot prevent covid-19 altogether, although there are new studies coming out on a regular basis, which suggest that the effectiveness of even self-made masks has been underestimated quite a bit. 
However, of course the masks need to be worn, and taken on/off, and cleaned correctly. 

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Just ask yourself: if someone is standing 6ft away from you and they sneeze; would you prefer that none of you, or both of you were wearing a mask?
A mask is probably not a perfect 100% protection by itself, but I would most definitely prefer masks in the above scenario, even if it was the most generic thing like a bandana.

Every little thing that can help is a good thing. There are some findings  indicating that how hard a person gets hit by the virus is related to the initial amount absorbed. Meaning, if a direct hit by someone breathing/coughing/sneezing gets you, let’s say, a million viruses, perhaps the mask(s) might cut the dose down to 50% or 10%, (or whatever) and that difference may be enough to determine if you get seriously ill or not.

 

 I have to admit that I was slow to *get it* with Covid, maybe because of the “cry wolf“ effect caused by every year hearing about West Nile Virus, Zika, SARS, MERS and even regular flu will kill, but this is clearly different - not “just flu”. 
 

As someone who lives in the US, and grew up in Sweden, I know both countries have felt culturally weird about wearing a mask, but half my family is Japanese. There, on the flip side it’s considered common sense and a courtesy to others to wear a mask any time you have even the slightest sniffles or a common cold when in a public place, or people will look at you weird and think you are very rude.

- When I lived in Sweden, it was more like it’s considered rude to go to work or school if you’re sick - simply just stay home. Which is of course a lot easier when you have universal health care....

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6 hours ago, Johnny Karlsson said:

When I lived in Sweden, it was more like it’s considered rude to go to work or school if you’re sick - simply just stay home. Which is of course a lot easier when you have universal health care....

This. 

 

This is I think is why Sweden is viewed so differently by many countries. It's a huge cultural factor in how we proceed with life in general. 

 

8 hours ago, Constantin said:

However, of course the masks need to be worn, and taken on/off, and cleaned correctly. 

Yes. This, and in combination of course with our health care system, in Sweden a recommendation for wearing masks would just be frowned upon and maybe even interpreted as the government saying that it's okay to move outside as long as you have a mask, which it isn't. Maybe we Swedes are just too daft :P

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Olle Sjostrom said:

This. 

 

This is I think is why Sweden is viewed so differently by many countries. It's a huge cultural factor in how we proceed with life in general. 

 

Yes. This, and in combination of course with our health care system, in Sweden a recommendation for wearing masks would just be frowned upon and maybe even interpreted as the government saying that it's okay to move outside as long as you have a mask, which it isn't. Maybe we Swedes are just too daft :P

 

 

 

 


The thing is, you wear a mask because you may not know if you or someone else has it. It’s all nice and well to say that if you feel sick you stay at home, but you may not know thaz you are sick. And what is sick? A scratchy throat? A running nose?

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4 hours ago, Constantin said:


The thing is, you wear a mask because you may not know if you or someone else has it. It’s all nice and well to say that if you feel sick you stay at home, but you may not know thaz you are sick. And what is sick? A scratchy throat? A running nose?

Exactly.  The big problem is careless asymptomatic carriers, compounded (in the USA) by an imbecilic lack of widely available testing and fast results.

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On 7/22/2020 at 7:43 AM, Constantin said:

Gloves in the other hand do more damage than good if worn for longer than a few minutes. 

 

Oh ya, gloves all day (or for several hours or whatever), aren't the way to go. But gloves for several minutes during load in, or during other high-contact periods when we're all reaching for the same door handles and someone forgets and coughs into their hand right before entering, aren't such a bad thing. I have some disposables, but will be trying some of those low-cost washable/reusable mechanics gloves... bring several pair, quarantine them for a few days between use. 

 

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