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SD833, PFL hearing / linking for MS microphone


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I had the chance to try out the SD833 in a production of three weeks length.

I used a MS-microphone and put it to input 1 and input 2, routed the channels to channel 1 and 2, linked them in the menu to MS.

When I toggled to PFL, I only could hear the signal on the left side (each channel same result).

I would like to hear the PFL signal on both ears, in order to evaluate the sound.

Is that a known bug? Have you encountered the same? Is there a work around? 

Best regards,

Jule

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I had the same problem when I tested with my Scorpio.
I think this is a very inconvenient behavior for using MS microphones.
In the meantime, if you set the monitor mode to any non-MS ones, you can listen to individual channels with both ears in PFL.

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Yes, I think the listening to one channel with both ears is the expected PFL behavior. 

May I ask you if you have managed to alter the width of your stereo recording? I didn't manage - and I had the idea that there is no concept for MS recording in the 833.

There was one in the 7 series. 

In the 6 series, you had to alter the gain of the side channel (which felt like an auxiliary solution).

Is there a possibility in the 8series? I did not see one.

I have the impression of a misconstruction or at least this is a huge bug that needs to be fixed.

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I agree.
I think the 8 series has insufficient features related to MS recording.
I personally do not need such a feature because I always manage the stereo width in post, but for some jobs, it may be needed.
By the way,  I think you don't need  the feature to adjust the stereo width of monitoring sound. Isn't  it enough to simply control the side channel gain as you mentioned about 6 series?

Edited by Naga
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You're certainly right, but if you unlink them in the channel input settings and designate them as MS pairs in the headphone monitor settings, you can change the stereo width by adjusting the input trims on the individual channels.

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We don't need rubber bands because if you set the headphone monitor setting to MS mode, the faders are forced to be disabled.
I'm thinking of making a request to SD for fix this matter, so I've tried again to verify the MS-related behavior. In the process, I realized my misunderstanding about decoding to the LR bus, so I've revised my previous post.

 

When the input setting is set to MS Link, it can be sent to the LR bus and record, but it is not possible to set each channel's gain individually. Note that you can monitor each channels solo if you create a suitable preset in the headphone monitor settings and select it.

 

If you unlink the input settings and set the headphone monitor to a MS pair, you can monitor the decoded signal, but you can't send it to the LR bus. If you set the monitor selection to non-MS ones, you can use the PFL function on each channel. You can also adjust the input trims on each channel individually, which allows you to adjust the stereo width on the monitor.

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Jule, did you already speak to sound devices about this?

 

This is what I finally received from SD half a year ago after an email conversation about this issue: 

 

»Your words and frustrations have not been passed over by any means. I've confirmed that I have reported this issue as a ticket on 12/5/2019 to our team, however, we do not get any information on the progress of firmware and releases. 

I will take time to discuss this issue with our team and let them know your frustrations for this issue. 

 

Thank you for your email!«

 

End of the story. So far no fix, just features.

 

I my understanding there are two issues in this context:

  1. This left only PFL bug 
  2. The 8 series overall poor support for multi channel or microphone array systems (also as MS and double MS)

 

The possibility of trim linking is a big advantage of the 8 series compared to the 6 series. At the same time it can be an unwanted restriction when individual adjustment is needed (to properly set stereo recording angles in MS or compensate level differences, etc.)

 

A simple solution could be here:

The first channel’s trim of a link group should act as the “main group trim”, all other channel’s trims of the group should act as “trim offsets” relative to the main trim.

This would do it, right? 

 

It sounds weird to me that all the new 8 series recorders share these restrictions / bugs. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 1:03 PM, Naga said:

I'm thinking of making a request to SD for fix this matter, so I've tried again to verify the MS-related behavior.

 

Yes, Naga, please do so, too.

 

6 hours ago, ffilipp said:

Jule, did you already speak to sound devices about this?

 

Yes, I have. And the support answered quite quickly.
(Quote: “When toggling the PFL, you should hear CH1 (Mid) in the left ear and CH2 (Side) in the right. This is the expected behavior when you PFL into either linked channels.“)

Uhm, no.

And I even answered to this. (That the expected behavior of a PFL function would be to listen to one channel in both ears in order to evaluate the sound.)

As Naga said before, if I monitor the non-MS, it is possible to listen to individual channels with both ears in PFL.

 

6 hours ago, ffilipp said:

The first channel’s trim of a link group should act as the “main group trim”, all other channel’s trims of the group should act as “trim offsets” relative to the main trim.

This would do it, right? 

 

I agree. This is a possible solution. Maybe one could even assign a “main trim“ or “lead trim“.

Best regards,

Jule

 

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1 hour ago, jbuerjes said:

Maybe one could even assign a “main trim“ or “lead trim

Yes, that would be even better! 
 

To have then an additional routing option to wich file track the channel is send to would make it perfect! 

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11 hours ago, OnTheSoundSideOfLife said:

How do you like the 833 compared to the SX-R4+?

 

There is a gain mode and a fader mode in the SX-R4+. In gain mode up to 4 channels can be linked (assignable). No linking possible in fader mode (of the SX-R4+). 

 

When I listen to the prefade signal of any linked channel with the R4+, I can hear the signal in both ears, which gives me the opportunity to evaluate the sound. 

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i think a lot of the SD stuff is fantastic but is generally built for dialogue. it was one of my frustrations with previous SD recorders i owned. 

i think having input trim linking is a major step in the right direction. i assume you can link as many input trims as you want with the 8 series. but haven’t used any of the 8 series/scorpio so i don’t know for sure.; i think it would be really cool if SD did something like the cantar x3 where, on top of having input linking, you can have fader 1 control the fader level for the M channel while fader 2 controls only the side channel. this way you can control the ms signal that goes to the mix track and still have a discrete ms signal to hand over to post.

 

the sx-r4+ has easy input linking and you can achieve more mixing if you add the rotary fader box or the linear fader panel. it sounds beyond great for stereo and ambisonic capture.

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  • 3 weeks later...

There is progress in the question of changeable stereo width and linking!

As you can see in the video, there indeed ist the possibility of changing the width - by toggling (hold toggle) and simultaneously turning the adjacent button. The display then changes from MCS to MS.

Sorry for the ugly sound in the video, it was an unforeseen opportunity.

 

 

 

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