mkh 60 or kmri81?

[cinetj]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post and after looking for a while I have to say the forum is amazing. I could introduce myself as a novice that just has finished film school.

I'm trying now to buy some gear (the minimum is what I can afford right now). First question: I can only get one shotgun microphone: what would you recommend: a sennheiser 60 or a neumann 81, none of them? It would be better or worse to get a long shotgun mic, the 70 or the 82?

Thanks a lot for the help!

[RPSharman]

Do you mean one mic or one shotgun mic?  If you have another mic already, then what is it?  This will help answer the other question.

If you can only buy ONE mic, then for the money, durability, reliability, and a number of other factors, I'd buy a 416.  You can find them used for a very good deal too, if that helps the wallet.  They have ample gain for wider shots, and if not used too close they also sound pretty nice on close-ups.  It would be a mistake to buy a 70 or 82 if you only have one mic.  It'd be awkward indoors, and also requires a great deal more skill and experience to operate.

Robert

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

I have used both the 60 and the 81 extensively, and my favorite is the 81.  The Neumann 81 incorportates the things I want in a short shotgun mic.  It has a good reach with a soft edge  and has a pleasant warm tone that will separate the human voice from background noise indoors and out.  You can also easily mix it with a schoeps 41.  The 60 is OK reach wise but doesn't reject background noise was well as I think it should.  The tone isn't as well rounded as the 81 and doesn't mix well with it's sister mic, the 60.  Mixing it with a schoeps 41 isn't going to happen without a fight either.  It is durable though.  In my opinion, it's not a horrible mic, it's just not a great mic.

The 416 has a tremendous ability to pull the human voice out of background noise but has a hard edge on the pick-up pattern which takes some real skill to boom correctly and the tone isn't very warm.  You can also use it as a hammer.

This is all subjective and many professional movies have been made with all these mics.

[cinetj]

Do you mean one mic or one shotgun mic?  If you have another mic already, then what is it?  This will help answer the other question.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for answering. I really don't think of buying anything else (microphone wise) besides a wirelless setup and a lavaleir (any input on this one also?).

Then, it's the 416 for you? Are there many differences between the 416 and the 60. The lower price is already a positive one for me.

Cheers

          Rodrigo

[RPSharman]

Rodrigo,

There are lots of differences between these mics.  I agree with Ken that the 50 and 60 do not match well, which is weird.  I also agree that the 416 can be a bit harsh if not used properly, but you sure can hear the words, which is important when starting out.  The Neumann 81 is great, but we are talking about your buying only one mic.  The 416 will probably stay in your kit forever, even if you decide to try other mics as you and your crew gain more experience and acquire more gear.  Also to agree with Ken, you can use it as a hammer!!  It just works all the time.  Hot, cold, humid, RF hell, it just works.  If I had to trust that the ONE mic I owned was going to come out of the box and work every time in every environment, then I would buy the 416, no question.

Regarding wireless...you never want to buy twice.  Buy the professional standard.  Look at the Lectrosonics 211/411/SR receivers and SM/MM400/UM400 transmitters, as well as looking at the Zaxcom stuff.  Both are professional, but Zaxcom has some amazing new features that if you can afford, are a good thing.  Lectro stuff is readily available used, which can help financially.  In terms of lavs, the Sanken COS-11 is the most common.  You can search many threads here about which ones people like, etc., but the COS-11 is still the most "popular" for one reason or another.  Once again, buy quality.  When I started, I found there to be an abundant supply of used MKE2 lavs on eBay.  They are common in theatre, so tend to show up a lot.  I love these mics, but the heads are a little tricky to hide.  I think they sound far superior to the COS-11 in a tie knot, but that's just my opinion.

Robert

[studiomprd]

the choice of mic is an individual one that no one else on this, or any, forum can make for you.

time after time we discuss this, while some new choices get discussed, the actual specific answer remains elusive, and it will be your choice, influenced by a number of your own individual specific factors.

I believe an important thing to keep in mind is that without actually knowing what was used, you would not be able to tell which microphone was used from listening to the finished product ...

over many years, the favorite "which one microphone ?" question usually favors the reliable and popular (for good reasons!) 416; Sennheiser really expected to retire the 416 after they introduced the MKH-60, but the marketplace resisted; Sennheiser even did a recent run of the discontinued 816's, due to "popular demand".  The discontinued 416-T's require what is no longer common "T" power (though some mixers still support "T", and inline supplies are inexpensive, so a used 416-T can be an excellent value.  Rode makes a "416 killer" that is! and Sanken has options.

For wireless, The Senn Evolution G2 series is one hell of a bang for the buck (see the rule below) and for a lot of work you would , as noted, not be able to tell the difference in the finished product.

as I'm typing this and trying to think of a comparison, and this went through my mind: Ice Cream!  OK, let's see: there are premium Ice Cream's, and standard Ice Cream's, and budget Ice Cream's, and name brand Ice Cream's and generic Ice Cream's.  and Ice Cream comes in a number of flavors.

OK, take vanilla, please.  You have a favorite??  you are at a party and for desert, dishes of vanilla Ice Cream are brought out.  can you tell for certain which brand??  and to wash the meal down, Ice Cream Soda's, (or rootbeer floats) ... can you tell the difference??

sure, you can read the spec's, listen to the subjective descriptions and opinions of others, but you reall need to consider your own parameters, do some listening tests, and you will have to make your decision, yourself!

The rule: Generally speaking, you get what you pay for!

good news: if you buy a professional grade product, you won't have a "bad" choice!

[cinetj]

Thanks everyone really! Robert, Ken, Studiokmprd... I know that in the end is all subjective but your experience has aide me a lot really. I think I'm going with the 416 or the 416 T if I find it cheaper (I'm thinking of getting a soundevices 302 that has t-powering). The only hesitation comes from what you've said about the rode

Rode makes a "416 killer" that is! The Rode NTG 3 has already been suggested for me. I would get one instead of a 416 if it has similar quality (it costs half of the price of the sennheiser) but I wouldn't bargain if that's not true, would find it better buying an used 416 in that case...

[stacysound]

60 or CMIT

[miker71]

Thanks everyone really! Robert, Ken, Studiokmprd... I know that in the end is all subjective but your experience has aide me a lot really. I think I'm going with the 416 or the 416 T if I find it cheaper (I'm thinking of getting a soundevices 302 that has t-powering). The only hesitation comes from what you've said about the rode

You can also convert T-power to P48 with an adapter. I have a 416T and 815T with adapters, works fine on P48.

Something like this-

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/49-224-CANFORD-PHANTOM-TO-T-POWER-CONVERTER-Mk2-Inline-1-channel-48V-input-T-power-out

[John Blankenship]

PSC makes a 48v. Phantom to 12v.T-Power adapter (under $40):

http://www.professionalsound.com/specs/barrels.htm

and Sound Devices had discontinued their 12v.-15v. Phantom to 12v.T-Power adapter, but you might be able to find one used:

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/xltpmaster.htm

Sennheiser also makes one (around $60).

John B.

[Kevin Sorensen]

So Ken, or anyone who uses the neumann 81i with sanken COS-11 's . Do they mix well together ? Like if you have someone wired,

who is deeper in the set, and your boom op.  would be micing the foreground ?

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

So Ken, or anyone who uses the neumann 81i with sanken COS-11 's . Do they mix well together ? Like if you have someone wired,

who is deeper in the set, and your boom op.  would be micing the foreground ?

It mixes really well with the sanken.

[cinetj]

and what about the rode ntg3, anyone?

[André Boisvert]

dont like neuman as it problematic with humidity

I've read about the Neumann and humidity problems before, but it hasn't been my experience. My 81 is 19 years old and has been in some very harsh environments (including getting whacked by a ceiling fan) and a lot of heavy rain. The kind where I have to stop every 5-10 minutes to shake off the windjammer because the sound gets progressively muddy and I can feel the extra weight. My Neumann has never complained.

[EricL]

I experienced problems with my 82i at about 45*F or below when it was wet.  Or below freezing with dry conditions.  Never had problems with anything above 45 or so, it's been through quite a few crazy rain storms with me and I'm sure in it's 15 years prior to me owning it it was hammered plenty since i bought it from a guy working in Vancouver, BC so plenty of wet conditions I'm sure.  Of course I'm talking about a 20+ year old mic, would new ones have the same problems, i would expect those kinks to be worked out by now.  Or is it one of those cases of "they just don't make 'em like they used to."?

Eric

[cinetj]

Insisnting: has anyone tried the rode NTG3? It's out in the market openly as a competitor against the 416 and one new costs something like the half of the price of the sennheiser.

[Guest BobD]

I am a firm believer in a track record, and "you get what you pay for".  Sure , there are exceptions to this, but it has served me well...

  I also would like to add that materials break down over time.... things just get old and need to be replaced from time to time... period.  I try to continually rotate mics and gear in general to try to remain fresh in terms equipment dependability, and quality....

[André Boisvert]

I experienced problems with my 82i at about 45*F or below when it was wet.  Or below freezing with dry conditions.  Never had problems with anything above 45 or so, it's been through quite a few crazy rain storms with me and I'm sure in it's 15 years prior to me owning it it was hammered plenty since i bought it from a guy working in Vancouver, BC so plenty of wet conditions I'm sure.  Of course I'm talking about a 20+ year old mic, would new ones have the same problems, i would expect those kinks to be worked out by now.  Or is it one of those cases of "they just don't make 'em like they used to."?

Eric

Thanks for your post, Eric. It got me thinking.

A few years ago, I worked with a newer 81 and was surprised to hear it take a couple of seconds to fade-up to being on, after turning on my mixer. My old one just cuts in hard, right away. Were there changes made to the Neumann line after they were bought by Sennheiser in 1991? Just thinking out loud...

As far as how well the 81 mixes with a Sanken COS-11, my experience has been that everyonce in awhile, the Sanken will sound pretty darn good, and will probably mix fairly well with many good boom mics. The majority of the time, the Sanken sounds OK, and might mix OK with some boom mics. The rest of the time, it doesn’t sound all that great, and probably won’t mix with any boom mic.

Along with the 81 and the Sanken, I have Schoeps’ CMC641/4, B-6’s and Trams, and can’t find anything that will consistently, day in, day out, go together well. YMMV.

[Guest BobD]

Thanks for your post, Eric. It got me thinking.

A few years ago, I worked with a newer 81 and was surprised to hear it take a couple of seconds to fade-up to being on, after turning on my mixer. My old one just cuts in hard, right away. Were there changes made to the Neumann line after they were bought by Sennheiser in 1991? Just thinking out loud...

As far as how well the 81 mixes with a Sanken COS-11, my experience has been that everyonce in awhile, the Sanken will sound pretty darn good, and will probably mix fairly well with many good boom mics. The majority of the time, the Sanken sounds OK, and might mix OK with some boom mics. The rest of the time, it doesn’t sound all that great, and probably won’t mix with any boom mic.

Along with the 81 and the Sanken, I have Schoeps’ CMC641/4, B-6’s and Trams, and can’t find anything that will consistently, day in, day out, go together well. YMMV.

Most of the true differences in the Sanken COS11s are simply from different characteristics of the persons voice, the environment the recording is to be done and the actual  physical mounting position and distance to the talents mouth....  The mic when placed in a perfect position, always seems to sound pretty darn good....

[Mick]

At a recent teaching gig I plugged a Kmr81, a Sanken, schoeps mk41, sennheisser mkh60, a schoeps shotgun (forget the model #)and a 416 into a solice mixer. The students then listened to them all using that same voice in the same environment and wrote down their preferences independently of each other. The results were mixed in that no particular mic was dominant over the others. This shows that regardless of price or reputation, the listener is the critical factor in determining the quality and relevance of any given microphone. Admittedly the difference between sennheisser and neumann is probably minimal given that they are now made by the same manufacturer, but up and comers like sanken and rode et al are just as useful and have as much place in a mixer's mic arsenal as any of the more expensive ones.

Having said that I wouldn't use an azden for a tent pole, but I've heard a movie mixed with a sennheisser $300 electret condenser that sounded fabulous. I think it's all about the ears and that goes for lavs, mixers, wireless and whatever link in the chain leads to a finished product.

Now before you jump in and say that all the microphones we tested were of a high quality to begin with...that was the point. To use tools that are the standard in the industry. Mainly because any others, with some notable exceptions, would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

IMHO

MIck

[old school]

It has been 20 years since I used one, but I was never a fan of the Neuman shot gun. I know and respect many who love and swear by the mic. I am also of the opinion that one can never have too many mic's. I would recommend buying the best quality mic that sounds the best to you. Then buy the next one, etc... My 1st Schoeps is 25 years old. The next 2 sound like the 1st one. Great product. Sennheisser mics have recorded a zillion scenes by now, maybe some of your favorites. Great product. Rent them all, try them, then buy them. As Mick pointed out, they are your ears, use them. You decide.

CrewC

[Ron Lacheur]

Thanks for your post, Eric. It got me thinking.

A few years ago, I worked with a newer 81 and was surprised to hear it take a couple of seconds to fade-up to being on, after turning on my mixer. My old one just cuts in hard, right away. Were there changes made to the Neumann line after they were bought by Sennheiser in 1991? Just thinking out loud...

I've experienced this too when it was plugged into my 442.

[ptalsky]

Cinetj, be careful when looking at Sennheisers - you want a 416 or a 60 - NOT an ME66.  Some less reputable dealers will position the ME66 as a professional mic.  It's not, really (IMHO).

Look at used 416's (and don't shy away from T-powered, there are lots of inexpensive options for T power).  Deals pop up all the time - just plan on sending it to the factory for a check up and cleaning (about $50) then run with it. 

Phil

[Kevin Sorensen]

The movie " Ray " was recorded with T powered 416's and it won an Academy Award for best sound. They are used on most all the

films he an his crew work on. And they are always busy.  I'm just say'in........

[Cloud Wang]

my first microphone was a sennheisier MKH 418S,it's a M-S stereo mic,i chose this mic because i did a lot of docs years ago,you can use the Middle just like a 416,or u can use it like a stereo mic.It's really sounds good and worked out so many bad conditions.And when i did my first tv drama ,that was a 2 month project,so i bought a mkh416.Right now,i'm a little bit tired of 416's sound,and i saved some money so i just bought one used neumann kmr 82i,it works very well for outdoor scenes,long reach in right hands,and a mkh8050 which i still learning how to drive it.