Clothing noise a real issue when concealing mics

[Soundie]

Hi Guys

Can anyone please give any advice regarding the concealment of Lavalier mics.

I am about to undertake a series where the mics will be concealed under clothing.  The presenter's style is to wear a shirt, without tie, top two buttons undone and a wearing an open suit type jacket.

The shoot will be heavily reliant on radio mics and shot mainly outdoors with two other contributers involved.

I have been doing some tests with concealing mics with the above attire in mind, but I am having no success to say the least.... clothing noise and rustle being a real problem irrelevant of where I place the mics and what type of mount and wind covers I use.

The mics in my kit are the Tram TR50 and Sanken Cos 11pt.

I have tried the Tram using the Drac clip and the Sanken with the rubber mount.  I have also tried both mics with the Rycote stickies used with the overcovers/undercovers aswell as the large fluffies (for Lavs) bearing in-mind that I have to take into account for windy conditions.  Other tests have been done using a length of moleskin wrapped just below the capsulethen taping directly to the shirt or skin...also, I've handmade cylinder makeup sponge mounts with an hole in the centre for mic insertion, but these two ideas don't allow for mounting any sort of windgag.  I have tested the mics with and without a loop just below the mic head to try and eliminate any cabling noise transfer to the mic capsule.  I am using double-sided toupee tape to secure the mics.

I don't know if it's the mic placement that's the issue, the type of mounting I'm using or a combination of both.

If anyone can help with any advice, it would be really appreciate as I feel as though I've come to a dead end!

Many Thanks

[John Blankenship]

...If anyone can help with any advice, it would be really appreciate as I feel as though I've come to a dead end!

No, you're only beginning.  It's a battle we all fight.  The key is to NOT give up, but to realize the elements you're dealing with.  Number one on the top ten list is the inverse square law:  Sound increases or diminishes by the square of the distance, therefore, if the mic is 1/2" from the noise maker (shirt) and 8" from the needed sound (mouth) you're fighting a difficult battle.  It's like playing cards and the house is dealing from a stacked deck.

You're using a lot of the right tools, but before you employ them, take a listen to the real problem, the noise maker that is 1/2" from your mic. 

#1) How noisy is the shirt?  What fabric is it?  Has it been starched?

Then look at:

#2) Where is the mic positioned?  Try to find a mounting point where the shirt moves the least as the actor moves.  Often this is in the middle, just under the edge of the shirt above the sternum.

I frequently use the Overcovers under the shirt edge in the middle next to a button (the button can make the shirt a little more stable at that point.  Yes, I prefer using the Overcovers over using the Undercovers, under a shirt (try saying that real fast a few times).  I find the soft fur of the Overcovers works better for me against rubbing noises than the Undercovers.  In your situation, the Overcovers will also help where wind noise is involved.

If it's particularly windy, have a grip stand holding a 4x4 to help block the wind, just off camera.

Everyone was amazed (including me) when I got clean tracks one day in gale force winds using the above methods.

Work with wardrobe on this.  If the shirt is noisy enough, there's sometimes nothing you can do short of going to a hair rig.

I imagine others will have hints, too, so take heart, you're fighting the same battles we all fight.

John B.

[Soundie]

Thanks for the prompt response John.

I will take onboard everything you have mentioned and give it a go.

It's my first posting and quite reassuring to know that there are other professionals out there willing to offer their knowledge and skill.

Hope I will be able to offer my help someday.

Thanks again

[Q]

Mr. Blankenship beat me to the punch.  If you HAVE to use a lav, wardrobe may HAVE to consider another shirt or jacket fabric.

I've also had good luck with the mic between the plackets (the part where the shirt buttons together) near a button.  Use stickies or toupee tape.

[Jim Gilchrist]

Also try Hush Lavs for the Sankens. They do a pretty good job helping to isolate Sankens from clothing. When wrapped in moleskin, they last a while, as well.

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=767&cat=99&page=1

Best regards,

Jim

[David Waelder]

#1) How noisy is the shirt?  What fabric is it?  Has it been starched?

John hits an essential point. Some shirts are just too noisy for one reason or another. Request that wardrobe wash the shirt. The talent may be wearing a brand new shirt and these typically still have the sizing that gives a crisp finish that makes the shirt look good in the package. You are using good tools and a conscientious approach. That you continue to have difficulty suggests that the shirt may be more difficult than it should be. Typically, it ought to be possible to put the mike in the placket and not have undue noise.

Sometimes some double-stick to lock the overlapping layers of shirt together can help.

Also, moleskin on the fabric lying over the mike can sometimes help.

If wind noise is not a big issue, you might get a Countryman B6 and thread it through a button hole. That mike is often small enough that it can hide in plain sight. Being in the open air should take care of most rustle problems.

There is also a specialty lavalier mike that is intended to hide behind a button or medallion overlay, permitting it to be out in plain sight.

http://www.coffeysound.com/pin-mic/

I don't see this on Coffey's regular catalog of mikes so there may be an availability problem. But certainly worth asking about. If you have the same talent spokesperson regularly, it would be well worth it to establish a lapel pin as part of his wardrobe so that he could be consistently and easily wired. I understand this was the approach in Borat.

David Waelder

[old school]

Hey Soundie, I find it hard to advise someone when I know nothing about their background or experience level when it comes to sound recording. You have a gig and some good gear, so you have that going for you, but beyond the good advise you have already received, I find it hard to add more. Maybe more info from you would help when it comes to advise. But then, "that's like my opinion man"... One of these,  ; ).....

CrewC

[RPSharman]

Sometimes an undershirt made of soft cotton can be worn and trimmed to be unseen even with two buttons open.  This gives you an option of securing the mic to an undershirt (in the sternum cavity) with large and VERY sticky piece of tape, like white cloth tape.  You can cover the tape with moleskin to reduce the noise of tape rubbing against the buttoned shirt.  This will help avoid cable noise near the mic, and you can still back the mic head with a Rycote Stickie and put an Overcover on the front to help with wind and shirt rubbing noise.

The biggest culprit in your scenario is the actual clothing noise of the jacket rubbing against the shirt, or a hairy or stubbly chest (the undershirt helps).  Having the costume department be aware of this concern might help them make different shirt and jacket selections.  Try to have this conversation early and often.

Just a note - sometimes Topstick can make its own noise by clothing sticking an un-sticking and re-sticking with movement.

Good luck,

Robert

[graham]

a few things to try...

1. sandwich either lav between 2 pieces of moleskin. topstick on one side and go to the "man cleavage area and stick topstick to skin

2. you mentioned top 2 buttons open. either side should have a gap that is exposed and turns up a bit away from skin but would still conceal lav from camera. again, sandwich with moleskin. it will be close to mouth and not get much ambiance. beats clothing noise

3. run lav up talents back OVER the shirt UNDER the jacket. lav wire goes under shirt collar in back( tape wire down at this spot) and wrap mic element to live in gap between shirt collar near the front and tape down. try tape to collar first. then try taping opposite to throat area and see what is less noisy. again, bassy unatural.

a few other tips. anytime you sandwich the lav, on one side goes topstick. on the other, put a piece of waterproof tape http://www.shop3m.com/70071215027.html. its smooth so will create less chest hair noise or shirt scruffing

for windproofing try hypafix http://wound.smith-nephew.com/AU/node.asp?NodeId=3703

cut 2 tiny pieces, one on top of other, and cover the lav element before the moleskin sandwich or however you plan to stick it to talent. it doesnt affect sound much and is low profile. Beware that it will however catch and make nasty scratchy sounds if the lav is not sandwiched or separated well enough from shirt material and/or chest hair.

There you go. ive never had a situation where all 3 of these failed on starched shirts with blazers.

a much simpler one, if wardrobe will play nice, is pop a hole and hide under blazer collar or sticking slightly out of the outside pocket(if available on chest)

an undershirt also helps to reduce clothing noise

[Soundie]

Thanks guys for all the advice... it's all been really usefull.  The test results that I achieved today were much better.

I understand it can be such a grey area when trying to eliminate clothing noise and trying to workout the ideal place for concealed mic placement (trial and error playing its part).

As John mentioned, the material of the garment being miked can undoubtedly either help or hinder towards minimizing the rustle factor.  As for placement, the sternum area seemed to work well with minimum clothing noise.

Thanks again for all the replies to this post.

If anyone has any further ideas, gadgets tips or tricks to combat this subject, they would be greatly appreciated.

[BVS]

I've always found that a soft woollen scarf is a great place to hide a mic when they are wearing one...the British sound mixers use it a lot because of the colder climate..so there's a real clue in there to try the soft wool approach I feel. Some sort of loose covering that need not be big and bulky..a small square of soft woollen fabric might be a great solution..make a lav sandwich with it.

[rich]

recently over on this side of the pond, the temperature has reached over 20ºC so the presenters / actors have been leaving their woolen scarves at home. this has made me very sad.

though i do find that if you bury the mic too far in the scarf or below more than one layer of it, you lose quite a lot of the high frequencies

[BVS]

Not quite so much of a problem with the DPA 4071's...much better than many other types...

[rich]

'cept maybe the 4063 :-)

and i only say that cos the work with the zaxcoms

[sonic_reducer]

Might I recommend hiring a good utility person who knows her/his way around wires?

A