Jump to content

23.98 time coded audio in a 29.97 Edit


Brian

Recommended Posts

Hey guys,

Just finished doing a shoot with a sony f900 rolling at 23.98.  I did not send my code to the camera.  They were using Record Run.  I sent a hard wired signal to the camera.  Rolled my Cantar at 23.98 and jammed at ts-c at 23.98.

The editor and post production supervisor sent me this:

"Here’s a new one.  Apparently the field team for this spot used a

double record system for the audio, on an Anton Cantar-X field recorder.  This

is causing us some trouble and delays trying to get the material into the

suite, at the correct frame rate."

Then this:

Waiting to hear back from the editor, on whether or not they can sort it out.  Issues are;

1) Recorded 23.976 for a 59.94 edit.

2) T/C's not jam sync'd to source footage.

The files will load directly into the NLE but due to the frame rate and TC differences, there's issues syncing.  We'll regroup on Monday.

Here was my response:

Dave should call me and so should the editor. I recorded at the proper frame rate, no question about that.

(2). If they wanted my code to be on the source material there should have been a request. Camera was rolling at 23.98, therefore I roll at 23.98. This is all standard. I sent a guide track hard wired to the camera, and timecode slate was in front of the camera. There should be no problem synching the material with the slate.

My code should not make a difference, 23.98 cross jams with 29.97.

I can stop by there office if they need my assiatance. they still have not specified what is the specific reason why the material does not synch.

Please please ask dave to call me.

I will call him again on Monday

I can only judge by this, but it seems the editor is looking for matching code and he does not have it.  He does not say the audio is drifting, but it should not.  There is not speed change.

Any quick thoughts on what I should be asking the editor.  They obviously made a dub of the tapes to SD and then are editing in 29.97.

Like I said, any input would help.

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are pissed about having to do a manual sync, prob in an edit system (not telecine).  They aren't used to this and didn't plan for it.  It would have helped if you had recorded the same TC as the camera--either taking TC from the cam for your Cantar or using a Lockit etc jammed to you on the camera--but they didn't ask for this so you aren't really to blame for not doing it (although asking beforehand would have been a good idea).  If the F900TC frame rate was 23.98 I too would have recorded 23.98 TC on the recorder unless someone told me not to.  There isn't any different sort of code for you to do re a 59.94 edit than 23.98 or 29.97.  You said that you shipped audio to the camera as well as your recorder, so they have the audio there if they A: want to bail on your Cantar tracks or B: need a guide track to sync to. 

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What more and more companies are doing is, they get a duplicate edit system (or have a person come in early), and just have the assistant editor sync up all the takes before the editor comes in. Even if there's 100 takes, it only takes an experienced person maybe :30 seconds to sync up each take. That's 50 minutes, tops. If you get fast at it, you're looking at half that time. Granted, for small productions that have no assistant, this can be an issue.

But Brian, you're correct: your method absolutely should work fine, there should be zero drift, and it's not that big an issue. I also agree with Phil that, in a perfect world, just use identical code for both camera and sound recorder. It's a little more trouble, but it does help the editor and post people later on. I've been too nervous to try it on shoots unless I have a Lockit or an Denecke SBT (I prefer the latter), giving me the responsibility of sending code to camera, but I know people who've just slaved code and it's worked. I'm more comfortable with the idea of generating the 23.98 code myself, because I've seen too many rushed camera operators forget to put the thing back in regen -- or worse, start every other take at 00:00:00:00, which so help me, I've seen happen.

About the only problem I did experience was on one shoot was, I left the slate in auto mode and discovered it was drifting. The sound was locked to camera, but the displayed timecode was drifting. I did discover the problem after lunch (slate about ten seconds out from the Fostex DV40 I was using), manually set it to 23.98, and all was well. Nobody noticed, but it's yet another potential mistake to watch out for.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like I said, any input would help.

Hi Brian,

It's important to check if they are going to downconvert to 29.97 FPS SD video before they sync your sound.  If they do this (as many HD projects do), then the video they are syncing your sound to IS effectively 29.97 FPS, regardless of the fact that it was originally shot at 23.98, and that 29.97 FPS is consequently the frame rate you want.

It's similar to using 30 FPS TC when working with film -- even though the film cameras shoot at 24 FPS, we do not use 24 FPS code because the syncing will happen at 30 FPS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the input. 

Lesson learned here is make a call ahead of time.  I could have made their life easy with a sync box.  I am going to buy one today to have it in the kit.  Philip, you are so right.  That was my feeling all along.  They are looking for code that is not there.  I am not to blame but yeah, a simple phone call would have change a few things.  I do always use a box with the Red because it's been a proven method that a lot of post houses want.  This client is a large television station.  I used to be in post and sync manually back in the day.  When you get fast at it, it's no big deal.  There is not a tremendous amount of material so all should be well. 

Marc, I hear you.  I always generate code, and put the box there.  I never take code from a camera.  Just wasn't trained that way.  I don't trust them either, so thanks for your input.

Noah good point.  I should check with them.  I thought they would edit in 23.98 HD timeline and then spit out a SD 29.97 version after the fact.  I will make a phone call.  That is the lesson of the day.

Thanks guys, I'll keep you posted on what's transpired in the next few days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All is well.

Talked to the post supervisor.  They did not receive the my files until the edit was halfway done. So... with no matching timecode they have to go back and unravel what takes where what, and so on and assemble from back to front.  He told me also that they shot at the wrong frame rate as it was supposed to be shot at 59.94 ref.

All my work was done properly and they would have sunk my stuff in the first place with the slate.  He said the timecode on the camera would have been a happy bonus.

I can breath again.

Thanks again for all your input and am happy to have this resource at my side.

B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...