JDirckze Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I've been asked to find an audio solution for a new ob/doc about to go into production, situation is this: 1 classroom 1 Teacher 12 Students 3 HDV cameras 1 ENG Sound mixer NO Hard disc recorder NO Money When the pilot was shot there were issues with missing important dialogue from the students because there was only 1 sound mixer with boom to cover all 12 students. Teacher was on radio mic. Most of the dialogue is coming from the teacher, who throws questions at the students every now and then. My suggestion was to group the 12 students onto 3 tables in groups of 4, and use a low profile lecturn style mic (Rode NT6) on a gooseneck on each of the 3 tables, hard wired to 2 of the 3 cameras. Radio mic (for teacher) and boom for the sound mixer to cover the students, stereo wireless link to the 3rd camera. I did look at using something like the CUB-01, but thought twice because of issues like fingers tapping on the desks, papers being shuffled, legs kicking the tables etc... This takes care of the NO money situation, rental would only be around $250 per day for the extra mics and Zaxcom stereo wireless links. The only thing I'm not sure about is how well the Rode NT6's will pickup dialogue. They would basically be there to pickup dialogue until the sound mixer could get there with his boom. There is no chance of a second sound mixer, there might be the option of bringing in a second boom, but it would be an intern with no experience booming, so it's almost better not having a second boom, no budget for anything like 12 radios plus a couple recorders to have everyone ISO'd. Anyone have any other ideas? This is about the best solution I could come up with considering there is no money to spend. I was also toying with the idea of flying in some omni's overhead, but I think seeing mics hanging from the ceiling won't be liked by the producers. Any input appreciated! Cheers, Jase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I'm no one too tell you what to do here, and I know your looking for a technical answer, but... This is one where you walk away and say, 'good luck with that'. Filming cost money!! It always did cost money, and it always will cost money. If the producers can't come up with the money for the proper equipment, then why should YOU have to pay for it? And I mean that literally, and figuratively. a) they are going to get bad sound, you will be blamed for it. they get bad sound, can't fix it, and publish this turd as the shining example of your work. c) you will somehow pull it off, hence they now expect it for free everytime now. Either way, this is a bad situation, no matter what happens. So, is there something I'm missing here as too why YOU want to set yourself up for a fall like this? Sorry so harsh. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Not harsh at all Richard! Thanks for the opinion... and yes, of course there is more to the story. More than likely I will not be involved with the shoot, I am leaving tomorrow on another gig and won't be around, so my reputation will remain in tact. I was brought in this morning for a meeting to give my opinion on the best way to approach capturing sound. We talked extensively about all scenarios, including having all 12 students on radio mics, recording ISO's to either Zaxcom Fusion or a couple 788T's, bringing in another sound mixer etc, but the fact is that production only have money in their budget for 1 sound mixer, and definitely no money for hiring all the extra gear that would be required to do the job properly. The show is for a local non-commercial TV network, hence the tighter than normal budget. The production company are internationally recognized, but this particular production is what it is, which is ultra low budget. No point arguing about how things should be done, as it wont change the facts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Agree with Richard. Someone is gonna have to find a few more dollars. Considering the low budget, here are some thoughts. Do they all have to be wireless? Have you considered WIRED lavs? OR, try to hang some mini cardioids a couple feet above the action (like the ones sometimes used to record orchestras). Some are available in black or white to blend better into surroundings. Is this a situation where any mic pointed at the action is better than no mic at all? This may also be an opportunity to use a long shotgun on the cameras - it won't be great audio, but it may be usable. Also, can you treat the room? That could dictate a lot of what will work. If it is a very reverberant space your mic choices and placement are more limited. Make the room as dead as possible and you might be able to get away with placing mics farther from the subjects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 In this situation, I would use table mics for the participents and an 8 in auto mic mixer. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Agree with Richard. Someone is gonna have to find a few more dollars. I wish it could happen... Considering the low budget, here are some thoughts. Do they all have to be wireless? Have you considered WIRED lavs? I don't think any type of Lav is going to work, 13 channels of audio and 1 sound mixer just isn't going to work. OR, try to hang some mini cardioids a couple feet above the action (like the ones sometimes used to record orchestras). Some are available in black or white to blend better into surroundings. Is this a situation where any mic pointed at the action is better than no mic at all? Definitely an option. The NT6's could be hung. Problem is, I've never seen the room, and won't be in town when filming starts... This may also be an opportunity to use a long shotgun on the cameras - it won't be great audio, but it may be usable. Definitely an option, something to consider for sure... Also, can you treat the room? That could dictate a lot of what will work. If it is a very reverberant space your mic choices and placement are more limited. Make the room as dead as possible and you might be able to get away with placing mics farther from the subjects. Probably little chance of that happening. I have built some absorption panels from acoustic tontine which may help. They still need to be covered in fabric, but again I have not seen the room, and won't be in town when filming starts. Thanks for the response! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 In this situation, I would use table mics for the participents and an 8 in auto mic mixer. Eric Good suggestion, but hard to find something like that to rent here in Sydney... will definitely look into it though. Thanks Eric! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Richard is 150% correct. remind them it is "show business", if they don't spend the $$ they won't get the results, then say bye-bye and move along... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I don't do this kind of reality/documentary project anymore. Consequently, I am not up on the current style of work. Still, I did a number of documentaries in years past, usually with a Nagra 4.2 over my shoulder and a mike in my hands. I did classroom situations many times and can't recall an occasion when I was unable to get suitable voice tracks of the students with my trusty Sennheiser 805. (this was awhile ago) Perhaps the multiple cameras creates a different expectation. Since one of those cameras is likely to be close to the student speaker, there is an expectation that the audio would be close to match the perspective of that camera. (I would just work close to the cameraman - there was only one - and could match his perspective.) To cope with the multiple camera expectation, I think I would add a boom person to the crew. Keep the teacher on a radio mike, hold a boom with a suitable directional mike yourself and provide the "boom" operator with a shotgun or short shotgun mike. I don't think I would even provide a boom (maybe a very short boom); I would just have them hold the mike and point it at whoever was speaking. Even a trainee of very limited skill could accomplish that. I am aware that there are arguments against using shotgun mikes indoors. There are times one ignores that sort of rule and this is such a time. Make the second boom a radio link to the mixer so that he/she can float freely about the room. Equip the "boom" operator with a Sound Devices MM-1 preamp so they can hear their own mike without the necessity of a radio link from the mixer. This also assures a good quality preamp for the mike and a smooth limiter. Now, the mixer has the teacher clean on a wire and can record the students with microphones deployed at different parts of the room. Even with unlimited budget, I would much prefer this method to having multiple wires to keep track of. Students addressing the teacher can be expected to speak out with a public voice and should easily be captured with whichever mike is close by. Even if they speak hesitantly, they will still be loud enough. Ideally, there would be some money not spent on multiple wireless that could now be spent on having a proper recorder. Something like a Sound Devices 744 would be just fine. There shouldn't be more than four tracks - the teacher's wireless, the mixer's hand mike, the boom/trainee mike and a mix of those sources. A 788 would be overkill. But, if production is really counting pennies, then leave it at the one extra mike. Your only expense is rental/purchase of one shotgun, one SD preamp, and a radio link. (Presumably the trainee works for peanuts and the promise of payback on the "next" project.) David Waelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Richard is correct. Here's an idea; tell them to drop the 3rd HD camera and crew and spend that money on the correct sound gear needed. I hope they paid you for your consulting time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 maybe they should save money by shooting in SD ?? after all, good content is good content, no matter what it is shot on! they are tripping over dollars to pick up pennies... they are going for style over substance they are going for sizzle over steak... sorry, there is no free lunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVS Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I have done this so many times over the last 40 years.The wire on the teacher is standard...and I boom the rest with my Mk41 on my pole...the trick is to contain the students in a smaller area...get wide shots in the standard desk layout...these are usually used over the teachers questions...then bring the students a little closer so the swing is easier....once you are over the student talking you watch the faces of the others for the tell tale signs that they want to speak...also it helps to know the names of the students and have the teacher refer to them when he wants their answers. The main camera has the sound sent as a split 2 track and camera mics for the other cameras....remember NO BUDGET. A sync clap at the start of each session is sufficient plus time of day code.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi Jason, I don't have much to add to the good advice already given except one note. I have found myself in similar situations to the one you describe a few times. Single camera isn't too bad, even if you're by yourself. Multi-cam shoots are a different beast. I once had a shoot with 3 cameras in a classroom. I just had the teacher on an RF and my boom (MK41 Schoeps) wired 2 channel to camera 1, mono wireless feed (G2s) to other cams. Not a prime situation. I hustled to pick up student's answers (they were, as RVD mentioned) 3 at a table, 4 or 5 tables, medium sized classroom. I just did my job and got mic as close as possible. The wide camera kept signaling me that I was in the shot. I ignored him (get some cover shots afterwards, for god's sake, you dickhead). He was pissed off. I didn't care. Non-profit group I was helping out was very happy with the finished product. Sound rules. Chris Newton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 My two cents. 1- Bad situation, only do it if you need the money ( if there is any ) or you are helping a friend or could gain from the experience somehow. 2- Schoeps MK41 would be a great mic to have. 3- If it is a one shot deal, meaning that everyone is wanting the spontanaity of the kids, then ask to shoot with one camera only and ask for it to be fairly tight, then get them to do the wide shot on their own. 4- See if you can have someone track the answers from the kids so that you can reshoot with a tighter shot and prepared for it. 5- Make them understand that it is a less the ideal situation that will yield as good of audio as they will give up on the image. Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 I had a situation exactly yours a few years ago, and tried the multiple table mic thing. Didn't work. Too much noise, too many voices, little voices, complex setup, to no avail or not much. Here's my take, given no money: put the best mic you can get on each camera, and you record the teacher radio and your boom (which covers the whole class) . You very much need to: A: manage expectations, B: NOT be cabled to anything, since you really need mobility C: promise to stay out of the A cam shot the best you can, and be observant of B and C but make it clear that without the audio you may have to break their shot to get all they have is B roll. C: I STRONGLY recommend that you roll your own recorder--doesn't have to be TC, but needs to roll through the camera tape or card changes, and be slated whenever or however you can. D: you need to MANAGE the situation to make recording possible--you can't get this done if they will not reconfig the classroom for the shoot. As was said--if you want to try to get all the kids, they cannot be as far apart as they are in a normal classroom. Producers may whine about the new config being disruptive--I say kids get used to new things very fast if they are sufficiently distracted by what they are being taught--they can often even forget about the boom mic. Often a camera, with its mic, might be closer to a kid that you can get in time and get decent audio. Having the shooters wear headphones will sensitize them to the sound they are recording, and hopefully remind them to try and control their handling noise. good luck Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 I have done stuff like this too, even recently when I had 10 children being interviewed. My approach was to lav the teacher, as everyone else has stated, and boom the kids. Tell the producers and director that if a kid delivers a question or answer that they like in particular, then have the student repeat it at that moment. The kid can be directed to be louder, or even to slightly rephrase the question/answer if they want. Don't make this request all about you. The close-up camera may also need to recompose and focus on the individual. It's always an easier sell if you make it about camera. For these moments you might be able to dip into the widest shot, or at the very least be well positioned above the widest shot for the one individual talker. Tracking the answers and questions is good too, but kids will rarely be as natural hours later, and if the show has no money then there will be no time for this solution and nobody on the payroll to keep track of the answers. Better to get right away. Good luck and have fun, as always. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptalsky Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 I agree with everything said above but why not add a second boom even if it is an intern. Since I live primarily in the low budget world, I can't tell you how many PA's I've trained to be boom ops. Most have worked hard to get it right. And, I always use mics that have less handling noise and a more forgiving pattern. I've generally gotten good work from them. And, even if they're off on occasion, it's still better than not having it up at all, right? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Thanks for all the fantastic suggestions so far! I have to keep this short as I'm on an island off tropical north queensland, and am using the iPhone for internet. Typing is not much fun on this thing... I should mention that the students are actually all adults. I suggested picking up any missed dialogue in the initial meeting but the producers insist that they are after the spontaneity of the moment, hence the idea of desk mics. What they really want is to not miss the comments between students after the teacher has directed a question to another student. Getting sound of a response to a question thrown out by the teacher is not an issue. As I said earlier, I wont be doing the job, I was just brought in as a consultant (and yes, paid for my time). I will definitely supply them with a boom and mic for an intern to use. Thanks again for the words of wisdom! Jase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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