Deva software

[Whit Norris]

Hey Jeff,

What version of software are you currently using on your Deva?

Thanks,

Whit Norris

[Jeff Wexler]

I am using X3.08 and have been for the last few months. I have had no issues (but I do not delete anything, I am way far away from using up any significant space on the hartd drive, I mirror only to internal DVD-RAM).

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Sound Intuition]

I too am using 3.08 and have had no problems with it. I mirror to the internal DVD for the dailies but at the end of the week I mirror to an external 250gb drive for my own personal storage. Has anyone tried the new software for DVD playback?

[Jeff Wexler]

A friend of mine is using a Deva 5 on a travel show with V3.08 and had the no audio record thingy happen to him twice in a week

Calling this occurence the "no audio record thingy" seems to indicate that this is something that happens often with the Deva --- I certainly hope this was not your intention by using those words. Having the Deva NOT record while giving the appearance of recording is a very serious matter but it is also something which has NEVER happened before, to my knowledge, to anyone using a Deva. I believe that it is something which has only happened once (most probably to your friend you mention) with a Deva running 3.08. I think it is very important to get to the bottom of this even considering that it is such an extremely rare thing. In my 9 years of experience with the Deva, Deva I, Deva II and now Deva IV, none of them have EVER failed to record, which I consider a remarkable track record, certainly as compared to the DAT machines we were all coming off of.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Whit Norris]

Thanks Jeff and everyone. I have been using using the Deva II for the last five years and the Deva V for less than a year. I have never had a not record issue. I am starting a new film next week and wanted to see who was using what software before I updated.

Whit

[Jeff Wexler]

I wasn't trying to put a label on anything, I have always been nervous about something like this happening with a HD recorder. Early on I did experience a recording error with the 744T, firmware version 1.2X ish where on playback it was encrypted sounding, like when a digital mobile phone cuts out, but that was a one time thing and the audio was ok on playback on a computer. Still scared me.

I agree entirely that scary things can happen and scary things have happened at one time or another to all of us. It is important to sort these things out particularly because many of the scariest things seem to happen because of operator error or a series of events that can reveal a bug in firmware. My only comment concerned the use of the phrase "that no record thingy" which implies a common occurence (not the case) and trivializes a serious (but rare) event. It would be like saying "the 744T did that multiple file thingy" referring to a very early bug in the 744T firmware that caused the rcording of multiple files (a problem brought to light for us by Noah and quickly corrected by Sound Devices).

-  JW

[Guest Glenn]

We have no reports of any problem like this in our service department. Who is your friend Scott?. I would like to contact him to get more information.

Glenn

A friend of mine is using a Deva 5 on a travel show with V3.08 and had the no audio record thingy happen to him twice in a week and the screen has done a couple of weird things, locked up and shifted to the right. Only pulling power and restarting the machine has cleared up the screen. He said he is now checking the audio anytime he can stop production. He is super lucky because he was sending a mix to camera, but the producers are not happy because they wanted the tracks for a internet thing the show is doing. He is now scared to use the Deva. He had it setup to record 48K, 16B, 29.97 and is over the shoulder with 4/5 wireless. He was recording to DVD at the end of day. Any thoughts?

[Jeff Wexler]

A friend of mine is using a Deva 5 on a travel show with V3.08 and had the no audio record thingy happen to him twice in a week and the screen has done a couple of weird things, locked up and shifted to the right. Only pulling power and restarting the machine has cleared up the screen. He said he is now checking the audio anytime he can stop production. He is super lucky because he was sending a mix to camera, but the producers are not happy because they wanted the tracks for a internet thing the show is doing. He is now scared to use the Deva. He had it setup to record 48K, 16B, 29.97 and is over the shoulder with 4/5 wireless. He was recording to DVD at the end of day. Any thoughts?

Scott:  for the real benefit of us all, could you please have your friend report to us directly on any problems he may have had with his Deva? This Discussion Group (and r.a.m.p.s. as well) has people who have had a wealth of experience with non-linear recording, most probably going back much further than your friend (although I cannot know this not having your friend identified), I am sure we could be very helpful in solving your friend's problem. Of course, the first thing that should happen is a call to the excellent service department at Zaxcom --- I have always found them to be very responsive in torubleshooting any of these problems and can usually get to the bottom on almost any issue within a matter of hours. I am surprised that Zaxcom (or the dealer who supplied the Deva) have not been contacted and that your friend carried on using a piece of equipment that appeared to be having problems. A simple question to you Scott: if you discovered a problem with a recorder you were using, even in the middle of a job, would you just carry on using it hoping that something would save you from potential disaster down the road? Anytime in my 35 years of experience once a problem is detected I would STOP using that equipment and go to backup gear. When an assistant camera person pulls a mag and notices possible film scratching, is the best procedure just to load it up again and see if the problem goes away? I don't think so.

You provide a dis-service to us all by reporting a potentially serious problem that some anonymous person reported to you (and possibly no one else) and then to NOT follow up on this in the typical thorough manner that you seem to approach many other issues raised on this board.

Let's see if we can get the the bottom of this.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Noah Timan]

You provide a dis-service to us all by reporting a potentially serious problem that some anonymous person reported to you (and possibly no one else) and then to NOT follow up on this in the typical thorough manner that you seem to approach many other issues raised on this board.

Is it really a dis-service, even if Scott is unable or unwilling to provide further information?  How so?  I would think that even if the information is incomplete, it's better than nothing, both so current Deva users can be aware of a potential pitfall (even if it is not a "real" pitfall) and so those debating purchase can choose wisely.  One has to give readers of this forum and others the benefit of the doubt to be able to take such comments with a grain of salt, particularly if they are not backed up with thorough evidence, and make their own decisions whether to dismiss them unequivocally, consider them and be wary of them, or believe them as though they were a holy word. 

For what it's worth, I also know of a mixer who had this problem with a Deva (in this case a Deva II), and NO, I am not going to divulge his identity unless he specifically gives me permission to do so.  I promise I'm not fabricating this, either.  I'm just contributing it so we can all consider the possibilities.  It's as completely possible that his problem was caused by operator error as it was by a software bug.  I don't know which and although I'm sure the gentleman in question believes he did not make a mistake, I doubt he really knows for sure either.  He *is* a mixer of many years experience (more than me) and didn't just fall off the turnip truck. 

Now, do I take his comment and decide all Devas are faulty?  No, I weigh it (and these current reports) against reports from folks like you, Jeff, and Billy Sarokin and a number of others who have had complete success with the Deva for many years and have regularly reported that it has never failed you in any condition, and come up with the idea that the Deva is a very reliable machine that, like just about any piece of gear we can think of, has occasional flukes.  If we can read about the discovery of those problems and their solutions by the manufacturer, so much the better and more reassuring for all involved.  Nobody is perfect, and we all have had equipment fail -- even our Nagras.

I agree that it's better to have a name and address on the comment in question, but I question the practice of discouraging the sharing of anonymous reports.  The nature of Deva and Zaxcom discussions, at least on RAMPS, have historically been sensitive and flame-filled affairs, and I could certainly understand if someone was reticent to report a problem because that person did not want to get their name involved in a knock-down, drag-out with half the community just because they had a machine failure, perceived or real, that they did not understand.

My .02

Regards,

Noah Timan

[Jeff Wexler]

I agree that it's better to have a name and address on the comment in question, but I question the practice of discouraging the sharing of anonymous reports.  The nature of Deva and Zaxcom discussions, at least on RAMPS, have historically been sensitive and flame-filled affairs, and I could certainly understand if someone was reticent to report a problem because that person did not want to get their name involved in a knock-down, drag-out with half the community just because they had a machine failure, perceived or real, that they did not understand.

Regards,

Noah Timan

That's just the problem, Scott was NOT reluctant to report the problem and did so in a manner in which his own agenda was revealed. As I said before, reporting second hand that a friend of his had that "no audio recorded thingy" with a Deva IV implies that this is a common occurence, something which everyone should know by know means the Deva cannot be relied on --- this is what I was originally commenting on and cautioning Scott to not incite fear needlessly in people who read what he had reported. I am not so concerned with the annonymity issue and I do understand that there are some who wish not to put their names out there. My other point was that since Scott seems to consider this vital information I only wish that a thorough followup would happen. I might mention to you, Noah, that when you had your initial problems with your Sound Devices 744T (which were, by anyone's standards, serious problems) had there not been a good clear follow up from you, Sound Devices and others, people thinking about the 744T might also be now thinking that it is an unreliable and buggy machine that has that "records multiple files thingy". For the record I will also state that my 744T has performed flawlessly on 2 feature films already, and though obviously lacking some ofd the features of the Deva it remains a very fine totally reliable machine.

-  JW

[Noah Timan]

My other point was that since Scott seems to consider this vital information I only wish that a thorough followup would happen.

Well, we'd all hope for that, but since he's reporting secondhand information, he may not be able to until he speaks to the person involves, as his post suggest.

As for your other comments, I don't want to upset you or anyone else.  I think the Deva is a pretty well designed, well-thought out machine, FWIW, and I've always been impressed by its user-friendly interface and organization as well as its thoughtfulness in its design to the particularities of our craft. 

However, I can't help but feel that the overzealous defense of any criticism of the Deva the second it occurs -- and we've all seen such defense even get quite personal and nasty on RAMPS -- has the opposite effect of what is intended.  In other words, the aggressive defense seems (at least to me) to make the machine seem more suspicious than less, as though there is some great cover up going on.  (No, I don't believe there is of course, but sometimes the tone of the various Zaxcom battles on RAMPS might lead me to believe otherwise if I didn't know and trust so many of the key players).  Why is it that when there is criticism of any of the other recorders, it is calmly discussed, but when there is criticism of the Deva the discussion sometimes quickly rises to hysterics? 

Your example of the Sound Devices problems that I had and reported last year are a good one.  I had a number of problems with the machine, and I wasn't looking to drag the company in the dirt or sully their name, but I did feel that it was very important to warn fellow members of the community that this version of the machine might just not yet be ready for use on a set.  I would have felt bad if someone else had the same problems I did and got fired while I sat there idly, knowing but not telling.  It took quite some time for the various problems to get resolved, but Sound Devices kept a cool head and acted quickly and responsibly to resolve the problems, users asked me questions on and off RAMPS about the issues and how they might be affected, and even on RAMPS people were inquisitive but nobody said "to hell with Sound Devices and their unstable machine" and so forth.  On the contrary, the machine continued (and I believe continues) to fly off the shelves, and the problems got resolved and were reported as such when they did.  No one ever came on and declared that the 744T was a shitty recorder that was not worth anyone's money -- not even me when I was ready, at the peak of my frustration with the early firmware, to drop-kick it into the East River.

Similarly, there was a recent discussion about Fostex DV824 problems on RAMPS, where one user noted a significant and serious powering problem and others noted several other issues.  None of that machine's users jumped in to defend the machine -- there was a calm discussion about the problems and a tally of hands on who had experienced them, and everyone moved on.  I have trouble believing any more or less of the machines were sold as a result of noting those problems.

Just food for thought...again, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but hopefully trying to encourage that it's okay to discuss equipment failure publicly.  I can understand, given all the "Roberto Wars", why you might not want to do that on RAMPS, but maybe elsewhere, where the subject is a bit less volatile, we can all discuss the various issues that might occasionally befall the Deva for the benefit of the community, just as we discuss its successes and advancements.

I might mention to you, Noah, that when you had your initial problems with your Sound Devices 744T (which were, by anyone's standards, serious problems) had there not been a good clear follow up from you, Sound Devices and others, people thinking about the 744T might also be now thinking that it is an unreliable and buggy machine that has that "records multiple files thingy".

I am unsure about the "multiple files thingy" and what that is -- I believe you might have me confused with someone else who had another issue with the 744T.  I had several problems with the 744T early last year, the most serious of which was a timecode instability which Matt Mayer eventually traced back to a problem with the pre-roll buffer.  The machine also had a nasty habit of locking up at any given time (including during recording), recording an endless loop instead of continuing to record the inputs, unreliable firewire connectivity, and a couple of other things that were not so very nice -- but I don't know about a "multiple file" issue.  Sound Devices fixed most of the problems that I mentioned in a pretty timely fashion.  Matt Anderson, their engineer, admitted at one point that the early spring of 2005 was a "low" point for their firmware.  It has since become a much more stable machine, although I am not sure the preroll problem is entirely solved (although the consequences to what might remain of the problem are far less dire than they were before). 

What's the multiple files issue?  I still use the machine (in a more secondary role at the moment) and would certainly like to be aware.  Thanks!

For the record I will also state that my 744T has performed flawlessly on 2 feature films already, and though obviously lacking some ofd the features of the Deva it remains a very fine totally reliable machine.

It's certainly taken great strides in the reliability department.  There are still occasional issues and bugs floating around (as I suspect there are with ALL of these software-based recorders) and the lack of mirroring ability is still a very sore sticking point, but it has much to recommend it.  The mic preamps and especially the A/D converters sound great, and the machine's size, weight, and low power consumption make it the ideal machine for over the shoulder work.

Regards,

Noah Timan

[Jeff Wexler]

Why is it that when there is criticism of any of the other recorders, it is calmly discussed, but when there is criticism of the Deva the discussion sometimes quickly rises to hysterics? 

I am unsure about the "multiple files thingy" and what that is -- I believe you might have me confused with someone else who had another issue with the 744T.

What's the multiple files issue?  I still use the machine (in a more secondary role at the moment) and would certainly like to be aware.  Thanks!

Noah Timan

I really don't know why discussions of Zaxcom products immediately descend into ridiculous and hysterical ranting and posturing, and this is not only the Deva but essentially anything from Zaxcom --- this has always puzzled me even as I have been one of the main participants in many of these discussions. It may take some really insightful and interested person to analyze why this happens. I do know that the majority of things that I have said have been totally truthful and honest, but are often reactive in response to things which have been said by others that are demonstrably untrue and usually quite mis-leading.

Regarding your problems with the early 744T, I may have mis-understood what the problems were and have called it multiple file issue while referring to the "endless loop" you mention (wherein, I believe, multiple and duplicate files were produced). Sorry if I got that wrong, I was just using it as an illustration. I am baffled as well why this issue was handled in a calm and rational manner, where if it had been a Zaxcom problem I'm sure we would still be stomping out the fires.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Thomas Popp]

I thought I saw this brought up on here by another user(s) in the last week or so?

Ok here is the thread

http://jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=406.0

I was just wondering if anyone had a update.

I wasn't trying to put a label on anything, I have always been nervous about something like this happening with a HD recorder. Early on I did experience a recording error with the 744T, firmware version 1.2X ish where on playback it was encrypted sounding, like when a digital mobile phone cuts out, but that was a one time thing and the audio was ok on playback on a computer. Still scared me.

I too have heard this issue before regarding the 744T. Some people call it the "ghost of the 744T".

It is not actually recording the files that way, it just somehow screws up during the playback. If you turn off the machine, and then turn it back on, you will be back up and running with no issues. It usually only happens once in while (happened once to me on a feature, then never again...however - the hotel we were staying at was supposedly haunted - so that probably had something to do with it too!)

~Thomas Popp

Boom Operator

818-359-1348

[cmgoodin]

These various playback issues that sound as distortion or ghostly static are usually caused by PCM data Framing errors.

PCM data in WAV files is stored in an interleaved fashion.  with 2 or 3 bytes for each channel for each sample. (depending on whether it is 16 bit or 24 bit)  When the D to A converter is mis-framed it gets off by 1 byte so each sample contains the low-order byte from the neighbor channel instead of it's high order byte.  Since there is no clock or framing signal the D to A has no way to know when this happens.   It can also happen with software errors miscalculate the starting byte of a file or mislabel a file as 16 bit when it is 24 bit. etc.  It can also happen in serial transmission of PCM data when a byte gets dropped or doubled.  Usually pretty rare but can happen.

---Courtney