Question for post mixers

[JDirckze]

A mate of mine who usually mixes TV (doco, lifestyle/reality) is mixing a DVD and was wandering if there were standards that he should be adhering to. He usually mixes so that there are no peaks above -10 dBFS which is in line with broadcasters.

Should he be mixing hotter for DVD?

Any input appreciated! Cheers,

Jase

[greg sextro]

Does he ever mix for theater?  Yes, there are different standards. 

I highly recommend he checks out gearslutz's post forum:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/

The answer is in there.

-Greg-

[JDirckze]

Thanks for the link Greg! Cheers,

Jase

[Aitor Amozarrain]

This particular thread is cross-referenced in a lot of webs:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/229741-standard-mixing-levels-movie-theater-dvd-broadcast-tv-commercials-etc.html

Regards

[John Blankenship]

...He usually mixes so that there are no peaks above -10 dBFS which is in line with broadcasters.

Should he be mixing hotter for DVD?

Actually, he may want to bring that down about 6dB.  This, of course, depends upon the burning software he's using and if it affects the level going to the disc.

I recommend that he listen to a few big studio releases, note their levels, then make test burns, comparing levels -- adjusting overall level so they're about the same as the studio releases.  Specifically, compare dialog levels and some of the hotter music/effects/etc.

John B.

[Marc Wielage]

This is constantly discussed in the post section by Pro Tools users on the Digidesign User Conference:

http://duc.digidesign.com/

The "Post & Surround" section has many discussions on peak dialog level for re-recording mixers. One major issue is that certain cable channels and networks (I believe Bravo and PBS are among them) are extraordinarily demanding about dialog levels. 1dB over, they'll kick back the mix and make you do it over.

No peaks above -10dBfs is pretty standard for DVD & home video. The trick is average dialog level, and also making sure the mix is done to a standard reference level. (Experts disagree on whether 82dB or 85dB is the best level, but it's clear the lower one is necessary for smaller mixing rooms.)

--Marc W.

[JDirckze]

Thanks for the info Marc...

We produce shows for numerous networks (discovery, nat geo, history channel etc) so we know all about the different standards to adhere to, especially in regards to average levels with dialogue, we've just never mixed straight to DVD before.

Thanks again everyone for the help! I love this place...

Jase

[BVS]

In New Zealand this the requirement for TV 3 audio:

TV3 PROGRAMME DELIVERY – 0092

( Audio Specs Only )

SD

Digital Betacam with full stereo mix on tracks 1 and 2, music and effects on 3 and 4

HD

High Definition should be 1080i50. Our preference is for HDCam-SR with audio tracks to SMPTE standards, that is:

1. Left

2. Right

3. Centre

4. Sub

5. Left Surround

6. Right Surround

7. Left Total (LT)

8. Right Total (RT)

with music and effects on tracks 9 and 10 if available. If 5.1 audio is not available then audio should be as for SD delivery: tracks 1 and 2 full stereo mix, 3 and 4 music and effects. Please note we cannot accept Dolby E.

If HDCam-SR is not an option then we will accept HDCam with audio as per SD delivery.

We will only accept HDCam-SR, HDCam or Digital Betacam for master delivery.

Audio

Programmes should be delivered in Stereo format

Left audio shall be present on the A Leg or Channel 1

Right audio shall be present on the B Leg or Channel 2

If Mono is to be supplied, by agreement, it shall be dual mono format with identical and coherent audio on both left and right channels so that it may be used amongst stereo programmes.

Reference audio shall be -18dB below digital peak that is to correspond with PPM mark 4 on a standard Peak Programme Meter (PPM). The maximum or peak programme level indicated with a PPM shall never exceed PPM mark 6 or 8dB above this reference level.

Line up Tones serve to identify individual signal channels and to provide Reference Levels to indicate that without adjustment the programme transmitted will be within the signal level limits specified. At least 1 minute of reference tone (PPM4) between 800 and 1000Hz is to be recorded on Audio track 1 (left) and Audio track 2 (Right) so that the phase is identical on both tracks to allow replat phase checks.This tone shall be accompanied by visual Colour bars and be present on each track carrying programme sound. All tracks to be mute for 2 seconds preceeding programme start.

The relative timing of sound to vision shall not exhibit any perceptible error. Sound shall not lead vision by more than 20ms or lag by more than 40ms. (Note: 40ms=1 frame)

AC-3 audio specifications are available on request only if programme is to be delivered on HD Cam SR tape with all audio channels as discreet (No Dolby E encoded accepted)

.

[Aitor Amozarrain]

IMMO

I believe that there´s no limitation for DVD material. There´s no transmition chain in any network with an analog stage in this case. You could go as hot as 0 dBfs, or even better, a bit less .

If it´s going to be theatrically released or played in home cinemas there´s no need for such peak limiting, for they will be accomodated without problem in the signal chain. It´s TV transmition which sets those brickwall ceilings.

It won´t be neccesarily hotter, It´ll just have a greater headroom to accomodate for peaks (0VU=-20dBfs >>>> 0dBfs)

Regards

[Marc Wielage]

I believe that there´s no limitation for DVD material.

Sadly, there sure are lots of limitations here in America. I've personally had home video mixes rejected by major studios for hot levels, even if they were infrequent. For example, my 2-track master of Dances with Wolves was initially rejected by Sony Pictures because we had a dozen peaks that hit about -5dBfs (mostly cannon fire). I went out, bought a Finalizer, tweaked it to hard-limit everything at -10dB, slapped that in the path, and everything sounded fine. It passed with flying colors. (This is the same version now out on Blu-ray, which is my color-correction as well.)

The 5.1 mix was done by another company, and they specifically remixed it in Pro Tools to optimize it for home video. It sounds terrific.

I've heard many, many complaints about movies that have excessive dynamic range for home video -- where loud music or FX passages blow the viewers out of the room, but then the dialog is so quiet they have to strain their ears to hear it. I think you can make a good case that a straight theatrical mix doesn't necessarily work for DVD. And network & cable delivery is even more critical than DVD in regards to peak levels and average dialog levels.

--Marc W.

[Aitor Amozarrain]

Sadly, there sure are lots of limitations here in America. I've personally had home video mixes rejected by major studios for hot levels, even if they were infrequent. For example, my 2-track master of Dances with Wolves was initially rejected by Sony Pictures because we had a dozen peaks that hit about -5dBfs (mostly cannon fire). I went out, bought a Finalizer, tweaked it to hard-limit everything at -10dB, slapped that in the path, and everything sounded fine. It passed with flying colors. (This is the same version now out on Blu-ray, which is my color-correction as well.)

The 5.1 mix was done by another company, and they specifically remixed it in Pro Tools to optimize it for home video. It sounds terrific.

I've heard many, many complaints about movies that have excessive dynamic range for home video -- where loud music or FX passages blow the viewers out of the room, but then the dialog is so quiet they have to strain their ears to hear it. I think you can make a good case that a straight theatrical mix doesn't necessarily work for DVD. And network & cable delivery is even more critical than DVD in regards to peak levels and average dialog levels.

--Marc W.

Hi Marc, I thank you for your correction. I guess I was trying to speak about this with somebody with experience. Why such limiting? Is it meant to keep the Headroom down? I´d appreciate if you are willing to explain some of the reason for those levels. Was this ( Dances with wolves ) a theatre mix? Were there two different mixes, one for theate, one for TV release? I could keep asking forever, so I´ll leave it there.

Regards

[DBurnette]

For example, my 2-track master of Dances with Wolves was initially rejected by Sony Pictures because we had a dozen peaks that hit about -5dBfs (mostly cannon fire). I went out, bought a Finalizer, tweaked it to hard-limit everything at -10dB, slapped that in the path, and everything sounded fine. It passed with flying colors. (This is the same version now out on Blu-ray, which is my color-correction as well.)

One of my favorite professors was the production mixer on Dances with Wolves. It's cool to read about other aspects of that project.

I have done post mixes for DVD output, but not for broadcast. I always used brick wall limiters on my stems, then mixed so I 'kissed' those limiters, but didn't drive them hard. The limited dynamic range of home systems is kind of a problem. Depending on how lazy I'm feeling, I will either meter the master or put another limiter there...I've never had to do an analog post mix direct to tape though, and won't claim that my small set of post projects means I know what I'm doing yet

[Aitor Amozarrain]

... and won't claim that my small set of post projects means I know what I'm doing yet

I´ll adhere to that.

[Philip Perkins]

We mix theatrical and DVD with sfx and music peaks to -3 and dialog to -10, as do a lot of networks for their HD presentations.  Anything that has to work with SD equipment or standards shouldn't go above -10 for anything.  However, re various audio delivery standards, that is hardly the end of the story.  There is the whole issue of "dialnorm" and long term equivalent levels in the dialog, and these standards have real teeth when mixing verite or reality material.  There is a lot of info on the various specs and what they mean in the stickies at the top of the Gearslutz post forum http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/  one of the most important concepts imparted there is that you MUST know the spec of the network or studio you are delivering to BEFORE you start to mix (or better, even sound cut) or there will be tears.

Philip Perkins

[Marc Wielage]

...you MUST know the spec of the network or studio you are delivering to BEFORE you start to mix (or better' date=' even sound cut) or there will be tears.[/quote']

Amen to that. I know of cases where the exact same master tape was delivered to HBO and Showtime, and one (but not the other) was rejected for very vague, subtle reasons. The networks are more or less identical, but good luck with Discovery Channel.

--Marc W.