Advice for wireless kit

[chriskellyfilm]

Hi folks,

 

I am sure this gets asked all the time and im sounding like a broken record here, but I am looking for some advice on which wireless setup I should invest in. I am shooting mostly feature doc projects intended for international festivals and theatrical release, shooting  in the UK & Ireland with quite a bit of travel abroad (so lots of different frequency bands). Sometimes shooting alone and sometimes with a sound recordist. I am considering the following; Wisycom quad MCR54 with 4 x mtp41s (Costing £5400 and which will be replaced within the next 12 months with a new model i understand), a Lectrosonic SRC dual receiver with SMBWD TX's costing £4000, (all with cos 11's at £245 each) or 4 Sennheiser G4 500's with the mke gold lavs and costing about £2600 for 4 channels. Everything will be recorded on a SD mixpre 6mk2.

 

I can see that the wisy quad receiver is a great deal, but its also very expensive, i am on a tight budget and also need to get a windshield, boom pole, cables and lavs. ive only shot with g3's before and ive found the RF strength a real nightmare in certain situations, especially filming protests / civil unrest where there can be a huge amount of RF interference and also just very wide DR sound from crowds shouting etc and filming with participants moving around over long distances. But the new 500 G4's have 50mw output so might fare better? Is there really a huge difference in the quality of sound recorded between these? if so where will i hear it most?

 

Is it really worth me spending £6500 for the MCR54 & soon to be discontinued MTP41s'? Heeellllllllppppppp!

 

thanks!

 

Chris

 

[Sebi]

I've bought a pair of G4 500 a year ago and I'll definetely keep them because they work fine and the receiver has a phones output so I'm also using it for IFB. 50mW increases the reach a bit and the wider frequency band of the 500s (mine are AW+ 470-558 MHz) is probably the biggest advantage over the G4 100. Sound-wise there's no difference and they use the same compander. They sound fine as long as you use the MKE or dpa mics but are of course more noisy than the more expensive ones.

In my opinion it's definetely worth using the G4 500 over the G3's you've already used but it's also definetely worth investing in the Wisycom system... You have way more possible frequencies to choose from, they sound better and the system is as compact as it gets. I'm assuming your using quite a small bag with the mixpre so would have to attach the G4 four times on the outside which is not really an ideal solution.

But since you asked about a budget-solution... Do you need 4 sets of wireless a lot on your shoots? If the budget is tight, why not consider getting a higher quality dual receiver plus 2 G4's as additional channels whenever you need them which you can otherwise use as a camera feed. Maybe you'll find a nice deal for a used Wisycom MCR42 + 2 TX's somewhere. Oh, and I think the MTP40's are perhaps the better choice for doc work since they use two batteries and therefore run longer than the 41's which use only one.

If your needing 4 wireless a lot then there might still be the possibility to find 2 used dual receivers (wisy/lectro/zaxcom etc...) that are maybe not significantly more expensive than 4 new G4's but probably more reliable and also more compact.

[Mattias Larsen]

I have a MCR54 and 4xMTP60 prebooked and I am sure they are fantastic for docu work. Currently I am using SMA modded Sennheiser SK2000 (sounding as the G3s, but lemo3 and a bit more TX power if needed), and it does the job most of the time with careful coordination with freqfinder and RF Explorer. Havent heard them next to Wisys, but next to Sennheiser SK5212 and the later sounds more natural.

 

But I also have to ask you this. Is this for yourself as a solo shooter or do you anticipate as working only with sound? Do you need to budget for a full sound kit yourself if you are a solo shooter? If you work with a mixer, they may want to use their own kit which they know inside and out. Plus managing every channel over 2 lavs it starts to get tricky. I can tell you one thing, I would not want to juggle 4 channels of wireless and a camera at the same time.

[chriskellyfilm]

I am usually shooting on my own, but i shoot long term docs, over years usually, and if i have a sound recordist its not very often. I shot this acambodianspring.com/ with a 416 mounted on an EX3 and one G3, it was a nightmare riding the levels and shooting at the same time! I would potentially use 3 or 4 mics at once, with a cs3e on the camera, all going into the mixpre6 mk2 which is 32bit float so i dont really need to worry about levels, only drop out, rustle, wind etc. the mix pre has run/stop from the camera and i have it mounted on rods at the back so when i hit record the mixpre records as well, it works pretty good to be honest, but I am looking for a step up in sound quality (and reliability) from the G3's.

Sebi if you know if any places with used lectro or wisy please let me know, id much prefer the 40's over the 41's if i do go down that road as you say the battery life is better.

 

Mattias do you mind me asking what you paid for the mtp60's and mcr54? i was quoted £7995 + VAT, which is more than my camera cost! I also saw on their website that the 60's record 32bit internally (doesnt mention float or not) but ive not heard that anywhere else, that would be pretty special if they did.

 

maybe you guys could recommend a set of mid range lectrosonic transmitters that could pair with the SRC dual receiver?

 

 

[Mattias Larsen]

1 hour ago, chriskellyfilm said:

I would potentially use 3 or 4 mics at once

Guess its either Wisycom MCR54 or Zaxcom with RX4 that fits the bill if you want just one device then.

 

1 hour ago, chriskellyfilm said:

i dont really need to worry about levels, only drop out, rustle, wind etc.

Generally levels are pretty much a non issue if you run a hotter mixtrack and conservative TX gain/good analouge limiter on the TX anyway. But I am pretty busy staying on top of my game with small tweaks if needed for even just a few wires to counter the issues you mentioned. Maybe your really good at multitasking and have developed a style that works for you over the years. I am just saying that for me personally, I would be pretty stressed to ensure good audio in a protest whilst also operating a camera and maybe have to socialize a bit too. But if you really have to do it, I would stay clear or G4 etc, it can do wonders if you are patient and plan accordingly, but drops out more easily than pro systems.

 

1 hour ago, chriskellyfilm said:

Sebi if you know if any places with used lectro or wisy please let me know, id much prefer the 40's over the 41's if i do go down that road as you say the battery life is better.

Someone is selling an older mcr42 with 2xmtp40s on FB currently and they pop up every once in a while here/fb/ebay and on bblist. Same for SRCs.

 

1 hour ago, chriskellyfilm said:

Mattias do you mind me asking what you paid for the mtp60's and mcr54? i was quoted £7995 + VAT, which is more than my camera cost! I also saw on their website that the 60's record 32bit internally (doesnt mention float or not) but ive not heard that anywhere else, that would be pretty special if they did.

Sure, no problem! My situation was a bit unusual, but it boils down to that I had to buy them last year before the price was set. I have put in 9000 Eur ex VAT for the kit (and another couple hundred for three right angled ta5 to 2 xlr), but its just a preliminary price, so I may have to add a bit or I get some credit when buying mics etc. And sure, its a lot of money. But to be able to scan, autopick and sync 4 transmitters wirelessly with the full availible UHF spectrum takes away so much dabbling for me personally (apps, manual setting of frequencies, RF Explorer, running to talent for TX gain if they scream) which will save both time and discomfort for talent. Last but not least. I expect RF stability to be stellar which will take a lot of stress off my back. Per channel its actually quite a reasonable price and cheaper than Shure, Zaxcom or Audio LTD.

 

Yeah it doesnt mention float or not, I was thinking about this too. Some people have recieved their units, so we will know soon enough I guess. What we know so far is that if the power runs out, the current recording file is also gone. Not a big issue, but not a non issue either. Hopefully it can be solved via FW.

 

1 hour ago, chriskellyfilm said:

maybe you guys could recommend a set of mid range lectrosonic transmitters that could pair with the SRC dual receiver?

I guess you'll want wideband if you travel a lot? Not that many wideband digital hybrid options then. Otherwise if you want a budget option and can stick to 1 block (and you can stick to srb in that case). The LMas are a lot of bang for the buck. 50mw rated (think closer to 75mw in real life) and digital hybrid. I have a spare LMa in block24.

 

For 2ch you have good options from all the popular brands to pick from, all with their own set of pros and cons.

[chriskellyfilm]

Thank you Mattias for the insights that is really helpful.

 

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

Guess its either Wisycom MCR54 or Zaxcom with RX4 that fits the bill if you want just one device then.

I could run a pro dual receiver and have two G4's for the less important talent - there are primary and secondary talent.

 

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

I would be pretty stressed to ensure good audio in a protest whilst also operating a camera and maybe have to socialize a bit too.

yeah its very much a wing and a prayer, im mostly concerned with RF drop out / interference as i work with some amazing sound editors who will separate and strip everything back and create a very detailed edit. im used to filming in languages i dont understand so shooting blind is fine for me, the chances of a key piece of dialogue being ruined by wind are pretty slim if i have a shooting ratio of 10:1 or more.

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

Someone is selling an older mcr42 with 2xmtp40s on FB currently and they pop up every once in a while here/fb/ebay and on bblist. Same for SRCs.

where on FB do folks list stuff? i will keep an eye out for second hand on ebay and marketplace but if there are any good groups please let me know!

 

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

Per channel its actually quite a reasonable price and cheaper than Shure, Zaxcom or Audio LTD.

per channel for the mtp40's they were unbelievably reasonably priced, but they have added £2595 + VAT to the bundle price for the MTP60's (or £650 per TX) which feels like a big increase for a product replacement, if the features are so much more advanced, then why discontinue the 40's? they should just make and sell both no?

 

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

What we know so far is that if the power runs out, the current recording file is also gone. Not a big issue, but not a non issue either. Hopefully it can be solved via FW.

This also happens with recorders like the mixpre, im not sure if that is fixable, it depends on how it writes the data to the cards?

 

8 hours ago, Mattias Larsen said:

For 2ch you have good options from all the popular brands to pick from, all with their own set of pros and cons.

any recommendations or thoughts? i might opt for a pro 2ch and backup with 1 or 2 g4's for the occassions i need 3/4 channels. what do people say about the audio limited a10's?

[Mattias Larsen]

2 hours ago, chriskellyfilm said:

I could run a pro dual receiver and have two G4's for the less important talent - there are primary and secondary talent.

Sure you can do that. I mix and match brands currently. You just need to coordinate, which takes a bit more thinking and time to setup than using the same brand for everything. I anticipate to save about 10m setup time by going primary Wisy compared to tinkering with a bunch of single sennheiser/lectro recievers combo making sure to find good places in the spectrum whilst not creating intermod.

2 hours ago, chriskellyfilm said:

where on FB do folks list stuff? i will keep an eye out for second hand on ebay and marketplace but if there are any good groups please let me know!

The MCR42 up currently is in a group for Swedish mixers called "Köp & Sälj EFP-Ljud". But there a handful of them in US, Belgium, German and some international ones. One of the bigger ones is called sound mixer swap or something like that. But you can also post WTB here or BBlist. I am sure there are thoose that want the latest and have slightly older wires they are looking to offload.

 

2 hours ago, chriskellyfilm said:

per channel for the mtp40's they were unbelievably reasonably priced, but they have added £2595 + VAT to the bundle price for the MTP60's (or £650 per TX) which feels like a big increase for a product replacement, if the features are so much more advanced, then why discontinue the 40's? they should just make and sell both no?

Wisycom used to be way more expensive until they cut their pricing in half a few years ago. It was quiet clear from the start that the older MTP40 bundle pricing was extremely agressive and that anything with symphony transmitters would be a notch up. I guess they spent quite some energy to finish a symphony TX, whereas MTP40 had some slight upgrades perfecting something that have been around for years (lp filter and narrowband). Are the non symphony TX gone from the product line? Did not know that, but not that surprised either, remote controlled is the future. I am sure you can be on the lookout for MTP40s once the MTP60 come into the real world. 

 

2 hours ago, chriskellyfilm said:

This also happens with recorders like the mixpre, im not sure if that is fixable, it depends on how it writes the data to the cards?

Update on this, seems that the wisy TX finishes the file if its powered up again. Making this less of an issue, but something to remember to close the files before pulling the batteries for the days etc.

 

2 hours ago, chriskellyfilm said:

any recommendations or thoughts? i might opt for a pro 2ch and backup with 1 or 2 g4's for the occassions i need 3/4 channels. what do people say about the audio limited a10's?

This is really a personal thing. Personally got good experience with lectro, but been carefully considering shure vs wisy. The A10s supposedly sounds really good, but atleast earlier on they struggled with RF range. For me RF stability is what I will prioritize and Shure/Wisy/UCR822 comes out on top, but wisy offers a bit more functionallity when operating from a bag plus the pricing and size per channel.

 

That said, all major brands offer good 2ch options at this point.