gabi Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I have been a happy 744T user for about 4 years now. Lately I felt the need to upgrade to a higher track count machine. Both 788T and the Fusion got my attention. By reading the specs and internet forums I could say both machines would probably suit my needs. Having said that, it seems to me that the 788T still has some drawbacks – which have obviously been addressed by SD that seems to be very worried about improving the limiters and solving some other software related problems. There is also an overheating problem and some users have reported constant system crashes. On the other hand, the Fusion seems to be a quite robust and reliable machine. The problem is that there are no Zaxcom machines currently in Brazil for me to test and I have no idea how the preamps and limiters behave on this machine, so it would be a kind of a leap of faith to purchase it. So what could really help me at this point is the opinion of users of both machines about their pros and cons. Specially the opinion of someone who has worked with both and could actually compare them. I'm particularly interested in preamps and limiters although I know sometimes this comparison could be very subjective. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, guys. This forum is great! Gabi Cunha Brazil P.S.: Senator, I know by heart your mantra about the arrows and the archer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 it even applies to Paranormal... but you are asking for help with a subjective and personal decision about a choice that has many passionate supporters of both devices involved. I don't know what channels you have for acquiring your professional sound equipment, but the manufacturers (another mantra of mine) have at least representation in your region, or perhaps you have dealt with an offshore dealer for other equipment and can make arrangements for either a demo or a rental so you can make the best choice for yourself... break-a-leg! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Both are really worth a go, although I realize that a hands on comparison will be expensive for you. Lots of Zax fans out there--both will work, but you already know the Sound Devices "drill" very well--how they do things, how the operating system works, so that might give the 788 the edge with you. Does the size/weight/volume diff matter much to you? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabi Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Does the size/weight/volume diff matter much to you? Philip Perkins Not really. And I believe that with the CL8 attached the 788 is pretty much the same size of the Fusion and maybe just a little lighter. Gabi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBurnette Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I mention this because of the varied geography of Brazil. I ran into someone badmouthing the Zax touchscreens...He claimed that the screens would get significantly less responsive in high-humidity environments...Though he was using it in Orlando, which I wouldn't consider high-humidity when I think of the Amazon basin in the rainy season. Anyway, anyone ever had an issue with the touch-screens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I mention this because of the varied geography of Brazil. I ran into someone badmouthing the Zax touchscreens...He claimed that the screens would get significantly less responsive in high-humidity environments...Though he was using it in Orlando, which I wouldn't consider high-humidity when I think of the Amazon basin in the rainy season. Anyway, anyone ever had an issue with the touch-screens? I never have had any problems with the touchscreen on the Deva and I have been in very humid conditions. I will say that it has at times been a little slower to respond when working in very cold environments but has always worked. I have had problems with Sound Devices screens (and the screens of other devices) in very cold environments. Although the other screens are not touchscreens, of course, when you cannot see them at all, it is a problem. For the most part, all of these machines run warm enough that screens usually come back after a certain length of time, even in cold environments. Regards, Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Can't compare to the Fusion but I can attest to the 788t in a few extremes. I'm in Louisiana and on my current shoot went through 40 deg with Rain Machine night with no problems. The week before we were in high temp / 100 percent humidity fun with no problems. I run with the CL8 in the bag with no problems. I can also Highly, Highly recommend the Petrol Rain Poncho if you are slinging the 788t in a bag. Allows very good access and visibility to your machine. I'd love to see a Fusion, but the 788t does the trick for me. ML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 To me, one edge Zax can have in this comparison is the ability to burn DVDs in mirror mode with a burner within the body of the recorder on some models, but not the Fusion. Since both the Fusion and the 788 would need an external burner the choice in that regard is less obvious. Does the Fusion have the ability to use the external burner the way the Deva V uses its internal one--ie the automatic mirror mode, transferring audio when the machine isn't recording? As far as I understand it, with the SD machines that sort of process is manual only. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twade Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 What is your application? What are you using it for? Movies? TV? ENG work? One thing I'm not a fan of is the cards for memory on the fusion. Their innovative MARF format on one drive is a great idea. I would want to store a whole show on one card really so I can deliver to anybody anytime on whatever format they want when mirroring off the drive. CF cards of any great size and reliability get pretty expensive. I really like the 260gb SSD drive on the 788t. I argue often over which sounds better so I can say they both sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi Gabi, The Fusion and Deva touch screens have been upgraded to a new display that are very bright and higher contrast than our original screen. The new screens are sealed better so any user experience should be with our newer screens to be relevant to your decision. The main things to look at when buying our recorder is the touch screen interface, the MARF file system and its enhanced reliability over FAT32 file systems, 8 output buses with digital direct outs, ability to record up to 12 ISO tracks directly from the inputs with or without internal mixing, multi fader control surface interface, Zax-Net wireless remote control interface, Channel effects including EQ notch filter delay and softknee compressors, and the ability to infinitely buffer the audio so that DVD-RAM recordings are never missing audio due to bad media, very low power consumption and no detectable heating of the case. There are many more features but these are the main differences between the Fusion and other products on the market. Glenn Sanders President Zaxcom Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Wang Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 oh really? " no detectable heating of the case " that's good to know,because in the summer the 788 is really HOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 ... Does the Fusion have the ability to use the external burner the way the Deva V uses its internal one--ie the automatic mirror mode, transferring audio when the machine isn't recording?... Philip Perkins Yes, it does. GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 There are many more features but these are the main differences between the Fusion and other products on the market. Glenn Sanders President Zaxcom Inc. Thank you, Glenn (owner of Zaxcom and creator of the Deva and Digital Wireless) for the product info, but I need to mention that this topic was requesting information primarily from USERS of the Sound Devices products and the Zaxcom products. Since you are the owner of the company that produces Zaxcom products, it would have been more appropriate to post this new product information in the Manufacturers & Dealers area. You could have, of course, posted in this topic a link to the Zaxcom website (or even to a post in the M & D area on this Group) identifying pertinent product information that the original poster of this topic might find useful. I will add to this my own personal user experience, now that I have a Deva with the new screen: the new touchscreen is GORGEOUS, much easier to see even in high ambient light conditions, and I am sure it will continue the reliability and stability that I have had with the older Deva/screen. Regards, Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Jeff, did you send it back to Zaxcom for the upgrade, or did Forest do it? CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I have not heard of the 788T shutting down due to heat, but I do know they get hot. I have not experienced this, however. I did start a thread a few weeks ago about limiters on the 788T. I have not been happy with their performance, after trying several settings. The 302 and 744T limiters behave flawlessly. But recently I discovered that if I use the CL8, the limiters behave differently and sound a great deal better, with the factory settings. I do not know why this would be the case, but it is. I am now far happier with the unit's performance. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Isaacs Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 But recently I discovered that if I use the CL8, the limiters behave differently and sound a great deal better, with the factory settings. I do not know why this would be the case, but it is. I am now far happier with the unit's performance. Robert The improvements in limiter performance were introduced in the most recent firmware release, v1.76. These improvements are not dependant on whether a CL-8 is attached. See http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/788t-limiters/ for a more indepth description. Paul Isaacs Principal Applications Engineer Sound Devices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabi Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The improvements in limiter performance were introduced in the most recent firmware release, v1.76. Paul Isaacs That is very useful information, considering that many 788 users have reported poor limiter behaviour on previous firmware versions. Now suppose I would use one of those machines (788/Fusion) as standalone machines, relying only on their preamps and limiters for documentary and for scripted material, no mixer in front. How do you like/trust/love/hate those preamps and limiters? And thanks a lot for the previous answers. Gabi Cunha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Now suppose I would use one of those machines (788/Fusion) as standalone machines, relying only on their preamps and limiters for documentary and for scripted material, no mixer in front. How do you like/trust/love/hate those preamps and limiters? Gabi Cunha. I don't want to beat this topic to death, but the mic preamps in ANY of the Sound Devices devices or any of the Zaxcom devices, Deva, Deva Fusion, are excellent. You would be hard pressed to determine any significant differences even with critical listening. The limiters and overall EQ and EFFECTS available on the Deva or Fusion are excellent, and I am confident that Paul Isaacs' assessment of the Sound Devices limiters is spot on. That said, the issue of the quality of the mic preamps (as I have mentioned many times before) is a NON-issue when you are using wireless --- the mic preamp the mic is seeing is NOT in the recorder, it is in the wireless transmitter. If you plan on doing low level nature recording with a high quality open mic (Schoeps, Neumann, etc.) then the mic preamps DO matter (the machines from Sound Devices and Zaxcom are both fully up to the task). Regards, Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Graff Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 QUOTE FROM: PHILIP PERKINS ON YESTERDAY AT 09:01:39 PM ... Does the Fusion have the ability to use the external burner the way the Deva V uses its internal one--ie the automatic mirror mode, transferring audio when the machine isn't recording?... Philip Perkins Yes, it does. GT Or when it IS recording if you prefer. Can mirror the same folder you are recording or a different folder. I do long multi-track recordings on documentaries and the continuous mirroring is a great feature (I have a Fusion). Often production will give me a bus-powered drive and I mirror as we go. When we wrap I burn the sound report and hand it over. Another thing I like is while MARFis always 24 bit, I can mirror 16 or 24 bit (and mono or poly .wav files plus other options) Per 788t manual: "Once a file is recorded its sampling rate and bit depth can not be changed in the recorder. The 788T does not perform sample rate conversion or bit depth changes. File conversion must be done in another environment, such as an audio workstation. Alternatively, a real-time analog transfer is often performed instead of sample rate conversion." While I would disagree that there is "no detectable heating of the case", it is very minimal, especially compared to 788t which gets REALLY hot. I had the second Fusion made and had some issues with the touch screen where the calibration would go a few millimeters off in very high heat. Zaxcom replaced it for free of course. I now have Fusion 12 and have used it in the bag in 106 degree Fahrenheit heat with no problems. I really like the machine and the control surface mixing panels are a nice feature no one has mentioned. I have the Mix 8 and love it. Sound Devices makes great, burly products, but the scrolling drives me nuts. Perhaps the touchscreen is a liability for some, but it is also what makes the Fusion/Deva so great. Bam, bam, bam...all information can be accessed and changed in seconds. It is such a pleasure to use, imo. I guess I don't see the need to store a whole show on one CF card. I keep several with me and they can be swapped out in seconds. They are small and light. PG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 QUOTE FROM: PHILIP PERKINS ON YESTERDAY AT 09:01:39 PM ... Does the Fusion have the ability to use the external burner the way the Deva V uses its internal one--ie the automatic mirror mode, transferring audio when the machine isn't recording?... Philip Perkins Yes, it does. GT Or when it IS recording if you prefer. Can mirror the same folder you are recording or a different folder. I do long multi-track recordings on documentaries and the continuous mirroring is a great feature (I have a Fusion). Often production will give me a bus-powered drive and I mirror as we go. When we wrap I burn the sound report and hand it over. Another thing I like is while MARFis always 24 bit, I can mirror 16 or 24 bit (and mono or poly .wav files plus other options) Per 788t manual: "Once a file is recorded its sampling rate and bit depth can not be changed in the recorder. The 788T does not perform sample rate conversion or bit depth changes. File conversion must be done in another environment, such as an audio workstation. Alternatively, a real-time analog transfer is often performed instead of sample rate conversion." While I would disagree that there is "no detectable heating of the case", it is very minimal, especially compared to 788t which gets REALLY hot. I had the second Fusion made and had some issues with the touch screen where the calibration would go a few millimeters off in very high heat. Zaxcom replaced it for free of course. I now have Fusion 12 and have used it in the bag in 106 degree Fahrenheit heat with no problems. I really like the machine and the control surface mixing panels are a nice feature no one has mentioned. I have the Mix 8 and love it. Sound Devices makes great, burly products, but the scrolling drives me nuts. Perhaps the touchscreen is a liability for some, but it is also what makes the Fusion/Deva so great. Bam, bam, bam...all information can be accessed and changed in seconds. It is such a pleasure to use, imo. I guess I don't see the need to store a whole show on one CF card. I keep several with me and they can be swapped out in seconds. They are small and light. PG Are you using an external HD or DVDRAM burner in a bag rig or on a cart? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Graff Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Are you using an external HD or DVDRAM burner in a bag rig or on a cart? Philip Perkins DVD-RAM burner can only be used on the cart or in a process trailer. Anyway, not over-the-shoulder. The external hard drives I use are bus-powered and work well in the bag. I like these AcomData Ondago drives. Not sure they're still made, but I did a search and here's a (looong) link: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=acomdata+external+hard+drives+160+gb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9251355479542732622&ei=ynrqSuvZOYLOsQPNpuXjCA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBAQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers Anyway, they're smaller than the LaCie Rugged and, imo, just work better. Backup to CF is the best however. Uses least power and quickest to move to another drive, etc. Nice to have options. PG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I have the latest firmware, and the limiters behave completely differently when the CL8 is hooked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Isaacs Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I have the latest firmware, and the limiters behave completely differently when the CL8 is hooked up. This is correct operation. V1.76 introduced post-fade limiters in addition to the already existing pre-fade (pre A/D) limiters for each input channel. Limiters were also introduced on the mix tracks. When you connect the CL8, its mix faders are introduced into the signal path and with this comes the ability to boost an input's level further. Here's an example of why post fade limiters are important... Lets assume you have set your limiter threshold to -3dBFS and that the current pre-fade ISO level which is determined by the trim gain is below that threshold of -3dBFS, say -8dBFS. Obviously the pre-fade limiter will not activate. Now whilst you are mixing this input with other inputs to your mix track you decide that the level of this input is a little low in the mix, so you decide to boost that input's mix fader by say 9dB. If the post-fader limiter were not there, the post fader signal level would hit digital overload. The post-fader limiter prevents level exceeding the threshold thus protecting from digital overload of the post fader level. Its also important to have mix track limiters. When multiple inputs are mixed to a track, the summing of these signals can cause the track level to approach digital overload (0 dBFS). With the 8 pre-fade limiters, 8 post-fade limiters and 4 track limiters, it is very hard to drive the 788T into digital overload. Here's the link to more detailed info, if you missed it. http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/788t-limiters/ Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 DVD-RAM burner can only be used on the cart or in a process trailer. Anyway, not over-the-shoulder. The external hard drives I use are bus-powered and work well in the bag. I like these AcomData Ondago drives. Not sure they're still made, but I did a search and here's a (looong) link: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=acomdata+external+hard+drives+160+gb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9251355479542732622&ei=ynrqSuvZOYLOsQPNpuXjCA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBAQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers Anyway, they're smaller than the LaCie Rugged and, imo, just work better. Backup to CF is the best however. Uses least power and quickest to move to another drive, etc. Nice to have options. PG Thanks for all the info from real world users! Gabi, I don't know what type of projects you are working on, but I'm kind of in the same boat, but honestly have a heavy lean towards the Fusion. I would mostly use it on a cart for film, but sometimes over the shoulder. As far as films I work on seem to go, mirroring to an external HDD is the most efficient way. The last four features I have done were shooting on memory cards that were constantly reformatted (3 on a RED and 1 on an EX3). It almost seemed silly to hand off a DVD that was then ripped and data added to the workflow of the camera data. There are no camera tapes to put in a box, just a bunch of oddball discs from my PD-6. I know one of the (on-site) editors I work with has a habit of scanning my sound reports to a PDF asap so he didn't have to carry any paper around (or lose it?). anyway, in this system the sound files are fed into the process that copies the camera data to multiple HDDs and go to separate places at night. If they manage to lose audio at that point, there won't be any video either. I'm genuinely not sure how often I would need an external optical drive, and the ability to hook up a bus powered HDD is great. That makes both the 788T and Fusion attractive when you might be working from the bag and want to strip the kit down as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efksound Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Hi Gabi I don't know if at this point you already made this tough decision.I'm more or less in the same situation as you. Happy owner of 744T but want to also move to higher track count + ISOs and mixing possibility. Also don't have an easy possibility to try before buying. One thing to take in consideration is in the case of the Fusion some of the extras you'll need to buy, like NP1 batteries and charger,high capacity Compact Flash card(s) 32Gb or 64gb, Db25 cable, all of those things that you probably have coverered if you go for the 788T. Are you planning to keep the 744T as a backup machine or are planning to sell it to help you buying the new recorder? In the case of keeping the 744T as backup or in the case you would need more tracks maybe then again it would make more sense to get the 788T. On the other side I'm also worried about some 788T users complaining about the random lockups/crashes, heat issues, that the Fusion doesn't seem to have. The Fusion seems to be also more battery friendly Difficult decision :-) Happy 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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