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788T/Fusion comparison and advice


gabi

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788T users complaining about the random lockups/crashes, heat issues, "

the 788T runs warm,  but that has not caused operational problems.

you want that much stuff, in a package that small?? then with the technology we currently have, and the laws of physics, there will be heat, and it has to go someplace; the case of the 788T is designed to take the heat away from the components inside.

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I've never had any problems with my touchscreens on numerous Deva 5 and Deva 16 machines.  I've used them in humid conditions in Thailand and the Caribbean, in deserts in Morocco and New Mexico and frigid cold in Minnesota and Montana.

Billy Sarokin

I mention this because of the varied geography of Brazil.

I ran into someone badmouthing the Zax touchscreens...He claimed that the screens would get significantly less responsive in high-humidity environments...Though he was using it in Orlando, which I wouldn't consider high-humidity when I think of the Amazon basin in the rainy season.

Anyway, anyone ever had an issue with the touch-screens?

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I didn't order my Fusion yet but I pretty much decided to go for it. One quick question about it: Does the Fusion name its files after scene and take? I read about file naming on the Deva and apparently it names its files in a random way. Is it possible for the user to preset the file name?

I know for a fact that the Deva creates a sound report with scene and take and all metadata necessary for           

post to locate the files. But my clients got used to see scene and take on the file name...

And yes, Senator, I did ask the manufacturer and for some reason did not get an answer.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Gabi

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The Fusion mirrors while recording to CF Cards (or via an adapter, to SD cards).  It's also has a fire wire port to mirror to DVD/RAM

To me, one edge Zax can have in this comparison is the ability to burn DVDs in mirror mode with a burner within the body of the recorder on some models, but not the Fusion.  Since both the Fusion and the 788 would need an external burner the choice in that regard is less obvious.  Does the Fusion have the ability to use the external burner the way the Deva V uses its internal one--ie the automatic mirror mode, transferring audio when the machine isn't recording?  As far as I understand it, with the SD machines that sort of process is manual only.

Philip Perkins

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I didn't order my Fusion yet but I pretty much decided to go for it. One quick question about it: Does the Fusion name its files after scene and take? I read about file naming on the Deva and apparently it names its files in a random way. Is it possible for the user to preset the file name?

Gabi

Someone else here may well be able to give you a more detailed answer (since I have never paid that much attention to the filename) but I do know that the Deva does not make the file name the scene and take. If I remember correctly, the file name is the user defined name of the folder (the "sound roll" number, for example) followed by a segment number beginning with 001 (which is sequential and increments by 1 for every recorded "take"). Full support for usual scene, take, note, etc. is provided by the metadata part of the folder (data which is available to most editing systems). The Deva will generate a sound report that will have the file name and all metadata available.

I have always liked the SEG (segment number) and I put that number in my hand written sound report so it is keyed to the scene and take number on my report. This has worked well for me from the very beginning with the Deva I (but I know there are others who want to go "all electronic" and have no hand written report).

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I have talked to assistant editors about this, and they routinely will just rename copies of the sound files with the Scene & Take Number, like "8A-01.wav". Utilities like Courtney Goodin's BWF-Widget Pro and Sound Device's Wave Agent will let the editors batch-convert large numbers of files to scene & take number. The editors typically don't have a problem finding the right takes, since they get recorded in chronological order. My experience is that file names are not high on their priority list; they're more concerned that everything is in sync and sounds good (not necessarily in that order).

I understand why Zaxcom doesn't do it this way, since it could screw things up if the mixer decided to rename the scene after it was over. This way, it just gets the "roll number-segment number" described by Jeff above, which stays consistent.

I could see a possible feature request for Zaxcom to allow changing the file names on the file to Scene & Take No. for the mirror disk, but it might get a little confusing, particularly if one file failed to mirror and the mixer had to provide a replacement disk.

I'm curious what the Cantar or Nagra does -- I'm not sure if the files are named as Scene & Take No. or not. Sound Devices names files like "S001T01_1.WAV" (scene 001, take 01), so it does do it logically, provided the mixer inputs the correct metadata. I'm honestly not sure what happens if you go back and change the metadata, since this is something I haven't tried with the 744t.

--Marc W.

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One quick question about it: Does the Fusion name its files after scene and take? I read about file naming on the Deva and apparently it names its files in a random way. Is it possible for the user to preset the file name?

I know for a fact that the Deva creates a sound report with scene and take and all metadata necessary for            

post to locate the files. But my clients got used to see scene and take on the file name...

I'm also in the same situation where my clients also expect the files name to have the scene and take number. So with the Fusion the only way to achieve this is like Marc Wielage says in his previous post is to use BWF Widget or Wave Agent to batch reaname the files. If you use a computer on set to burn the files to DVD and do your sound report (as I do ) then it's not a big deal. If you do a hand writen report or use the Fusion internal sound report function and burn to DVD using an external burner conected to the Fusion then you have no choice.

I also remember reading somewhere that Wave Agent had trouble reading the track label metadata from Zaxcom recorded wav files, Is that fixed now?

The Cantar AFAIK names its files giving them a complety (kind of random) unique name, but think has a function to rename it's files later adding the scene and take info. But probably someone with real Cantar experience can tell us more

I have some other questions for Deva/Fusion users

Can the touch screen get scratched easily? I do a lot of beach locations shoots and the sand could be a problem. Does some of you use some kind of transparent screen protector ? (like the ones they sell for cellphones or PDAs?)

How does the Deva/Fusion handle false takes/starts ? In the 7 series you have this trash folder where all the false takes go, and files can be later recovered if you need them. Or later empty the trash folder if you want. How does it work with the Deva/Fusion?

Can you add metadata info (notes) on the actual take while recording without interrupting the Recording? What about recording and be able to correct/add metadata info of the previous take without interrupting the recording?

For those who have or use the EFX pack, how good/useful is the EQ and the Notch filters to remove on set generator/AC or HMI ballast noises ?

Thanks for you answers

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One question that springs to mind for me, regarding bag mixing with the Fusion is this- How easy is it to alter the various inputs independant gain settings, basically changing the functions from being able to mix to being able to affect pre-fade iso levels?

What I couldn't work out from the instructional videos and manual on the Zaxcon site was where the Trim button on the front panel takes you. Does it take you into the Analog Trim Menu, so you have each input listed, then you have to select which input you want to affect and choose more gain or less gain? This would be the obvious answer.  Apart from that you also have the option to control each input's gain with a software fader, but you can only control one at a time ,(for inputs 1-4), and I think you have to press 3 other commands on the touch screen to get to this page. I know that inputs 5-8 can appear on one screen, but you have to press several commands to get here too.

So hopefully someone with some real experience can let me know how easy it is to do this "on the hoof". It may be something that is entirely managable once you get used to it, but I have to say that it sounds a bit fiddily, if I had a boom in one hand and 4 radios going, (worse case scenario!), having to look down and be quite precise about those screen hits, and conceivably it could take about 5 seconds to get to the function you want to alter, instead of the half second it would take to locate the correct trim pot on the 788, which with the CL8 you would obviously have input trim and fader control accessible instantly.

Without knowing what the Trim button does exactly I can't pass judgement, but if I owned a Fusion, I would like to have the option to press one key that would instantly change the hardware faders from input trim to mix faders. I understand that everyone else may not want this, because you could inadvertently be changing the wrong level (input level/mix), but in a bag situation, easy accessability to these controls has to be key.

Of course with the high quality 24 bit recordings these days, it is easy to ride the levels of the iso tracks in post without any real change in the quality,(as long as they dont distort!), so maybe it is not so important, but I were recording some music, or anything with real dynamics, I would want to have very quick access to input and mix levels.

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Hi,

To answer your questions, The touch screen is very robust.  I just finished a shoot in the Sahara and work often in New Mexico.  No problem with the sand and/or dust.  I do put a piece of tape over the dvd slot since it's the only opening.  I don't use any screen protectors.

I'm not sure about the false take button.  I don't use that feature.

And yes, you can add or edit meta data while shooting with limitations.  You can edit the current take while rolling.  For instance if the slate changed and you were unaware of it you can make the change during the take.  For earlier takes you can only go back when not in record.

The EQ/Notch filter is excellent but I don't use it often and find it a bit awkward to use.  It has the capabilities but it takes a little practice to use it quickly but if I remember right all the notch settings have an infinite range (ie, setting frequency, Q, cut or boost, etc).

Best,

Billy

Can the touch screen get scratched easily? I do a lot of beach locations shoots and the sand could be a problem. Does some of you use some kind of transparent screen protector ? (like the ones they sell for cellphones or PDAs?)

How does the Deva/Fusion handle false takes/starts ? In the 7 series you have this trash folder where all the false takes go, and files can be later recovered if you need them. Or later empty the trash folder if you want. How does it work with the Deva/Fusion?

Can you add metadata info (notes) on the actual take while recording without interrupting the Recording? What about recording and be able to correct/add metadata info of the previous take without interrupting the recording?

For those who have or use the EFX pack, how good/useful is the EQ and the Notch filters to remove on set generator/AC or HMI ballast noises ?

Thanks for you answers

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Andy P says: "Of course with the high quality 24 bit recordings these days, it is easy to ride the levels of the iso tracks in post without any real change in the quality,(as long as they dont distort!), so maybe it is not so important, but I were recording some music, or anything with real dynamics, I would want to have very quick access to input and mix levels."

You are asking some very good questions and it brings up some very important issues, not just for "ease of use" in a bag, but general issues of gain/trim/mix levels and so forth. You are right about the TRIM button taking you to the Analog Trim "page" settings and it is true that having to use the touchscreen and a rather full menu of trim adjustments is not something that is that easy to accomplish "on the hoof" as you say. I am not exactly sure how all the other recorders do this, having a hardware pot that will adjust input trim and mix gain (or 2 pots, 1 for each function) but if the SD 788 does it by menu choice - the pot will now adjust trim or adjust mix level, this seems a little subject to error although being easier to use.

Consider this, though, regarding input gain trim: in relation to wireless, if you are feeding an input on the Deva/Fusion the output of the wireless receiver, Lectrosonics for example, setting the input gain trim via the menu can be done in the relative comfort and not "on the hoof" since the only adjustment you are making relates to the output parameter of the wireless receiver. Set conservatively to protect the iso track, this is not a setting that should ever have to be changed. Any distorsion that is present happened way before the output of the receiver and there is no input gain trim setting you can change, "on the hoof" or not, that will deal with the distorsion. The distorsion, which will be properly recorded on the iso track (and at a proper level) must be dealt with by adjusting the 1st primary gain trim: the input trim to the wireless transmitter.

Now, with Lectrosonics wireless, this all important trim setting is not so easily adjusted "on the hoof" when the transmitter is not accessible to you (it is on the talent for example), but this IS the setting that needs your attention. If you were to use Zaxcom wireless you would be able to adjust the xmtr input gain trim remotely and while using the Fusion with Zaxnet (free software plugin) you could actually use the hardware fader knobs to control the input gain trim on the transmitter.

The whole relationship between input gain trim, output to mix bus levels, level going to a pre-fader iso tracks, is not always totally understood. Where distorsion occurs and what to do about it is crucial.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Hi Andy,

The Fusion input trim is almost instantly accessible through the touch screen. Press the trim button then a number button to select the channel to trim. Once in the channel input "trim" menu pressing any number button will instantly goto the desired channel to adjust. The trim is adjusted via the slide fader in the menu.

Since the Fusion remembers the last channel adjusted it will not be necessary to select a channel some if not most of the time.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

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I can't speak too highly of the new Zaxnet software that allows you to use the hardware pots on the Deva/Fusion or Mix 12 (or Mix 8) to control the mic input gain on the Zaxcom transmitters.  For me, the one big disadvantage of using wireless mics until now had been giving up control of the pre amp.  Zaxnet gives that back to us.  I use it all the time.

Billy Sarokin

Consider this, though, regarding input gain trim: in relation to wireless, if you are feeding an input on the Deva/Fusion the output of the wireless receiver, Lectrosonics for example, setting the input gain trim via the menu can be done in the relative comfort and not "on the hoof" since the only adjustment you are making relates to the output parameter of the wireless receiver. Set conservatively to protect the iso track, this is not a setting that should ever have to be changed. Any distorsion that is present happened way before the output of the receiver and there is no input gain trim setting you can change, "on the hoof" or not, that will deal with the distorsion. The distorsion, which will be properly recorded on the iso track (and at a proper level) must be dealt with by adjusting the 1st primary gain trim: the input trim to the wireless transmitter.

Now, with Lectrosonics wireless, this all important trim setting is not so easily adjusted "on the hoof" when the transmitter is not accessible to you (it is on the talent for example), but this IS the setting that needs your attention. If you were to use Zaxcom wireless you would be able to adjust the xmtr input gain trim remotely and while using the Fusion with Zaxnet (free software plugin) you could actually use the hardware fader knobs to control the input gain trim on the transmitter.

The whole relationship between input gain trim, output to mix bus levels, level going to a pre-fader iso tracks, is not always totally understood. Where distorsion occurs and what to do about it is crucial.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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this is not a setting that should ever have to be changed. Any distorsion that is present happened way before the output of the receiver and there is no input gain trim setting you can change, "on the hoof" or not, that will deal with the distorsion. The distorsion, which will be properly recorded on the iso track (and at a proper level) must be dealt with by adjusting the 1st primary gain trim: the input trim to the wireless transmitter.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

that is true. However I (not using the ZaxNet system yet) quite often use my trim pots on the Cooper mixer when I adjusted the input gain on my TRX for some loud passages but need to bring up the dialogue level before / after that given moment it smtimes needs adjustment on the trim as the fader range will not be enough and / or I like to keep the faders around zero rather than goin max.

Same applies to bag mode when I use an SD302 in front of the 744T. The 302 got both trim and fader in place.

But when using both a Fusion and TRX (zax wireless) it makes sense to use the ifb remote and be able to adjust the trim on the very front of the gain structure.

Matthias

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that is true. However I (not using the ZaxNet system yet) quite often use my trim pots on the Cooper mixer when I adjusted the input gain on my TRX for some loud passages but need to bring up the dialogue level before / after that given moment it smtimes needs adjustment on the trim as the fader range will not be enough and / or I like to keep the faders around zero rather than goin max.

Same applies to bag mode when I use an SD302 in front of the 744T. The 302 got both trim and fader in place.

Matthias

I have often done this in the old days (we used to call it 2-handed mixing, one hand is on the trim knob and the other is on the channel fader) but I really think it is not possible to do quickly or elegantly with any of the current recorder/mixer devices. Using a regular analog mixer in front of the recorder (like the SD 302, 442, etc.) will allow you to easily (well, maybe not so easily) ride the gain in 2 places: the input gain trim and the output (to the mix bus) gain. If this is what you feel you have to do, and as I expressed in my first post I am not sure it is necessary, I think you have to count on using an external analog mixer in front of the recorder --- if you absolutely have to have immediate hardware control over both gains.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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it just applies to the situations, where I might have set the gain on the TRX a bit too low but don`t wanna touch the actor again (for costume reason, concentration on the scene - you name it) or for situations where we have just one (or no) rehearsal and then go for take. In these situations I sometimes need to push the levels on the mixers trim before using the faders (knobs).

But again I certainly agree that the ability of using a remote gain trim on the TRX is a lovely new tool as one can adjust that little bit of gain after the first rehearsal without disturbing anyone.

Matthias

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Thanks very much to Jeff and Glenn for your answers. Got to love this site!

I understand your point about the distortion from wireless mics happening at the pre amp in the transmitter, and of course the input trim on the Fusion wouldn't have any bearing on that distortion. I will admit that at times I am probably guilty of tweaking the trim controls on my 442,(feeding my 744), in times of extreme level even though I know it wont affect the distortion, but I know then it won't overload digitally too.

Thanks Glenn for your answer about the quicker way to adjust the input levels. However, is it something that you would consider in a future firmware update, to be able to have the option (if you wanted), to switch the hardware faders from mix to input level? This may not be possible at all, I don't know.

I think that if you want to change those levels, you want to do it quickly. Often in times of spontaneous action in a doco, not only the contributor to a documentary is moving quickly, but also the camera man or woman.Therefore you have to be extremely agile and on your toes and ready to fade down that pot whilst moving and not hurting anyone else or yourself with the boom at the same time. At the moment in these situations, I have my fingers on the boom trim pot on the 442. I should mention that I do that because it obviously affects iso and mix, and there is no limiter from the direct o/p on the 442 to the 744 (when using Line in), but on the Fusion I assume each track has a limiter.

I'm using Audio 2020's at the moment but because of the legal frequency block changes here in the UK I'll have to buy new radio mics by 2012. So I'm looking forward to getting Zaxcoms, because they sound fantastic, their ability to record and because of the Zaxnet capabilities. I only own a Zax stereo camera hop at the moment, but I love it, and think that it sounds transparent. So if I'm going to get Zax radios I should get a Zax recorder when I upgrade for track count from my 744, because of the Zaxnet potential, so I suppose the input/mix level switch is just a future feature request , but because I don't own a Fusion yet, it could be construed as being a bit cheeky;-) It's far from being a deal breaker, maybe I could start recording my iso's a bit lower...

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Thanks Glenn for your answer about the quicker way to adjust the input levels.

<snip>

I think that if you want to change those levels, you want to do it quickly. Often in times of spontaneous action in a doco, not only the contributor to a documentary is moving quickly, but also the camera man or woman.Therefore you have to be extremely agile and on your toes and ready to fade down that pot whilst moving and not hurting anyone else or yourself with the boom at the same time.

Thank you Glenn also from me --- I didn't even know that the trim menu could function in the quicker manner you describe (see, even I learn something here). To Andy P, I really know exactly what you are talking about having done many documentaries (a long time ago, way before all the "reality" type stuff and with much simpler equipment of course), having to access some menu or some setting that requires too many steps, is basically a show stopper. As I said earlier, I think it is something that will be difficult or impossible to accomplish with any of the new crop of devices/systems, with the exception being a complete Zaxcom system with Zaxcom recorder, Zaxnet and Zaxcom wireless mics.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Billy thank you very much for all your answers!!

BTW other things I couldn't find anywhere on the manual of the Fusion are if the 6 analog outputs can be ajusted level wise ?

I also see there is an Headphone Alarm tone option but what kind of different warning tones can you hear on the headphones ?

battery low? when starting recording? when stopping? Disk full ? Error while recording?

Do you have some king of warning when recording lets say full 10 tracks and maybe your CF card isn't fast enough?

Thanks everyone

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Four of the 6 outputs are adjustable when used with the MIX12. Otherwise they are fixed level at 0dBu.

The control knobs of the Fusion and Deva are selectable as Faders or as Zaxnet control of wireless preamps. Fusion/Deva input preamps are easily accessed with the dedicated input button. Regrettably there are technical issues with implementing hardware knob control of the Deva input amp so it will have to remain the way it is. 

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

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The control knobs of the Fusion and Deva are selectable as Faders or as Zaxnet control of wireless preamps.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

that`s cool. So even without a Mix 12 (a Cooper instead) I could adjust the gain on my TRX very quick. One more reason to consider the Fusion when upgrading from my 744.

Matthias

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One quick question about it: Does the Fusion name its files after scene and take? I read about file naming on the Deva and apparently it names its files in a random way. Is it possible for the user to preset the file name?

I know for a fact that the Deva creates a sound report with scene and take and all metadata necessary for           

post to locate the files. But my clients got used to see scene and take on the file name...

Gabi

As replied by others, the FUSION does indeed name files as seqential SEGMENT Numbers, with the STN (scene take numbers) in the metadata. This is obviously readable in Video post on Avid or FCP, and in sound post in Protools. When I first got my FUSION this was a concern for me, as I do post sound as well, and always preferred working with files named by STN, and my last recorder was an HHB Portadrive that did STN file names. My way of operating now is that I check with Post first, but generally will provide the file named by SEGMENT method. Means soon as wrap called can hand out rushes. Where STNs wanted, I just put that rushes CF (or SDHC )card into a little Netbook, and process with  WAVEAGENT. Then on drive home, I mirror another copy of days recordings to another CF. So 3 versions of days shoot ends up in 3 different locations. All this happens easily and reliably on FUSION.

And finally, I have found that when Slate number calling goes wrong, then it is less confusing changing metadata STNs, on a file with a non changing name, than changing files named wrongly by their STN.

On another front, I think we all need to reassess why we do certain things, and if old school DVD RAM is not demanded by POST, then why still use this old slow technology. Yes, I have a firewire DVDRam drive if POST demand it for rushes. I have not had to use it yet.

Cheers

Craig

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I don't know it matters much if proper notes are kept. I name my files on the 788T, but name my files DVD01T01 incrementally on the 744T back-up.  It's convenient enough to name the files, and I like to be able to see the scene and take number easily on the machine and/or in my computer if I decide to view the folder.  I don't like extra steps at the end of the day, and don't like having to carry a computer all the time.  The 788T renames all files on all media when it is changed after a missed entry, and changing the file name is quick and easy.

While most post guys won't complain or care much about the file name not being the scene number, I expect that they like it that way when they need to find an audio file quickly using only a scene and take number.

Robert

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While most post guys won't complain or care much about the file name not being the scene number, I expect that they like it that way when they need to find an audio file quickly using only a scene and take number.

Whether the files are named with the scene & take numbers or not, I think the key is just to make sure each file gets a head slate (and a written log). I've had to go through the pain of dailies sessions where all or some of the timecode slates are bad, and having an audio slate makes a huge difference in finding the right file for the right take.

--Marc W.

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