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788T/Fusion comparison and advice


gabi

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I have talked to assistant editors about this, and they routinely will just rename copies of the sound files with the Scene & Take Number, like "8A-01.wav". Utilities like Courtney Goodin's BWF-Widget Pro and Sound Device's Wave Agent will let the editors batch-convert large numbers of files to scene & take number. The editors typically don't have a problem finding the right takes, since they get recorded in chronological order. My experience is that file names are not high on their priority list; they're more concerned that everything is in sync and sounds good (not necessarily in that order).

I understand why Zaxcom doesn't do it this way, since it could screw things up if the mixer decided to rename the scene after it was over. This way, it just gets the "roll number-segment number" described by Jeff above, which stays consistent.

I could see a possible feature request for Zaxcom to allow changing the file names on the file to Scene & Take No. for the mirror disk, but it might get a little confusing, particularly if one file failed to mirror and the mixer had to provide a replacement disk.

I'm curious what the Cantar or Nagra does -- I'm not sure if the files are named as Scene & Take No. or not. Sound Devices names files like "S001T01_1.WAV" (scene 001, take 01), so it does do it logically, provided the mixer inputs the correct metadata. I'm honestly not sure what happens if you go back and change the metadata, since this is something I haven't tried with the 744t.

--Marc W.

Ok, I'm off the topic of 788 vs Fusion, but this is how a 3rd party handles this stuff......

Just to clarify a few things.... I regularly do rename files on my Fostex PD-6. The slate will go up (I'm already rolling) and the scene on the slate will not match my file name. Annoying, but not a big deal. In practice I always name my files what the slate says. If the scriptie declares that wrong, they can make notes.... My primary concern is to make sure the audio and video get synced as easily as possible.

Most films I do are shot on HD, and obviously not shot in chronological order. They don't always keep all the individual tracks with the edit (just the mono mix). At some point the post sound editor may need some of my individual tracks (as opposed to the mono mix) on the camera. By the time they get to this point, they will have no idea what day things were shot. I know from experience that *some* of them will drop all the audio in one big giant folder and just nab the file conveniently named 33B_007.wav.

The stinker is that my sound logs would obviously be in chronological order, so .... I have no idea how that poor editor would figure out what day we shot scene 33 to then look for the right file name.

I guess the batch conversion is the way to go..... because there is an advantage, to some people, when files are named with the scene_take method.

I'm not saying their workflow is right or wrong.... but that this seems to be a popular method for doing it.... at least in my experience.

The Fostex does use some sort of recording number or event number, which is probably stored in metadata. There is also a method for false starts. Either it will delete the file, or rename it with a ~ in the front of the file name. Set from a user menu.

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..... Where STNs wanted, I just put that rushes CF (or SDHC )card into a little Netbook, and process with  WAVEAGENT.....

So how long does it take for waveagent to process an average day's recordings? I realize the faster the computer the faster the processing, but ballpark. I was psyched to just hand off a HDD so they could add the day's audio into the digital vault with the video and I could be done!

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From WaveAgent manual:

Renaming Takes and Files

"WAV fi les with descriptive fi le names are useful in Post Production, even with comprehensive

metadata available in a Broadcast WAV fi le. Descriptive fi le names can immediately indicate the

contents of the fi le without having to import the fi le into a specialist application.

Wave Agent simplifi es the renaming of fi les/takes. Wave agent allows the user to:

• Rename individual fi les or batch rename fi les.

• Ensure fi le name tallies with embedded metadata.

• Ensure that fi le name edits are rippled through to all sibling fi les.

Wave Agent renames fi les according to their embedded scene and take metadata.  For example, a fi le

with scene name = 001 and take number = 12 is renamed as follows:

001T12.WAV

The ‘T’ separator identifi es the take number.

To rename fi les:

1. Select a take or takes from the Take List and click the Rename button.

2. Click OK to process or Cancel to exit without processing.

Wave Agent will not rename a take if it detects that the rename process will result in fi le name

duplication."

It is fast.

Gabi

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Hi Andy,

The Fusion input trim is almost instantly accessible through the touch screen. Press the trim button then a number button to select the channel to trim. Once in the channel input "trim" menu pressing any number button will instantly goto the desired channel to adjust. The trim is adjusted via the slide fader in the menu.

Since the Fusion remembers the last channel adjusted it will not be necessary to select a channel some if not most of the time.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

hi Glenn

is this function is Fusion only? i saw that deva & fusion's front panel are a little bit different,there isn't TRIM button on the deva's panel,or actually i can assign the F1 F2.ect link to TRIM menu ?

many thanks

Cloud

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anyone with a Fusion want to weigh in on the 10 vs 12 track choice? There is an obvious appeal to the extra two tracks, but is there any regret to losing the 10-pin output?

I know some people use the db25 connectors in a bag, but I have a feeling a lot of my bag work on features (car inserts whatnot) could work with the 10-pin output (feeding comteks and a camera scratch track).

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anyone with a Fusion want to weigh in on the 10 vs 12 track choice? There is an obvious appeal to the extra two tracks, but is there any regret to losing the 10-pin output?

I know some people use the db25 connectors in a bag, but I have a feeling a lot of my bag work on features (car inserts whatnot) could work with the 10-pin output (feeding comteks and a camera scratch track).

This is something that interests me as well.  I've been told that with the Fusion 12 you have an additional 4 line level analog inputs via the digital inputs.  Is this true?  Also, as johnpaul implied, do you really lose the Hirose 10 pin connection if you go with the Fusion 12?  I've tried to find this stuff out by going to Zaxcom 's website, but I just can't seem to find the answers there.

Thanks,

Tom

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Tom,

What you write about 4 additional line level analog inputs via the digital inputs is kind of an oxymoron. Here is a quote from a review of the Zaxcom Fusion 12 by Stephen Murphy of Pro Audio Review.

Without venturing into overstatement, the Fusion has an immense amount of mixing and routing power under the hood, which we'll look at more in-depth in the In Use section below. To summarize here, the Fusion features 16 inputs, eight output busses, 16 outputs and up to 10 recording tracks. Its 16 inputs are comprised of eight mic-/line-selectable analog inputs (on XLR) that utilize the same low-noise transformerless mic preamps found on the Deva 16, and eight digital inputs configured in four AES pairs (on DB-15). Each of the analog inputs features selectable 48-volt phantom power, an analog limiter and an adjustable (30 to 240 Hz) high-pass filter.

Here's the link to the entire article:

http://www.proaudioreview.com/article/19554

RL

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This is something that interests me as well.  I've been told that with the Fusion 12 you have an additional 4 line level analog inputs via the digital inputs.  Is this true?  Also, as johnpaul implied, do you really lose the Hirose 10 pin connection if you go with the Fusion 12?  I've tried to find this stuff out by going to Zaxcom 's website, but I just can't seem to find the answers there.

Thanks,

Tom

From the homework I'm doing trying to learn as much as I can about the Fusion product range

The hardware differences I found between the Fusion12 and 10 was the 10 pin Hirose conector and the DB25 connector

On the Fusion10 you have it as Outputs 5 and 6 and camera return

On the Fusion12 you have it as Line Inputs 9,10,11,12

On the DB25 connector the Fusion12 has 8 analog outputs while the Fusion10 has 6

post-247-130815084149_thumb.jpg

post-247-130815084154_thumb.jpg

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This is the only difference in the I/O capability from a Deva to a Fusion. The other differences are just the recording media and the keyboard functions of the Fusion have been optimized for over the shoulder operation rather than cart operation. Please feel free to call me at the office if their are any points that are unclear.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

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Glenn

What kind of CF cards(speedwise and compatibility wise) do you recommend using with the Fusion ? Any there any specific models to stay away from ? Speed wise what would be necessary to record full 10 tracks on a Fusion10 ?what kind of Ultra UDMA modes does the Fusion support?

Thanks

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Thanks Richard and Eric,

So then the additional 4 line level inputs on the Fusion 12 are on the Horise 10 pin NOT on the DB15?  I'd love to have the additional inputs, and having an additional 2 analog outputs on the DB25 would be terrific.  However it's too bad you have to make that comprimise.  I'd love to be able to keep the 10 pin Hirose as a quick easy camera link and return.  After all that is pretty much the standard "video camera" connection these days.  Is there no other way on the Fusion 12 to send a pair of outputs to a video camera other than using the DB25?  I can imagine trying to build a breakout cable that connects to both the DB25 and the 10 pin Hirose in an effort to adapt my existing 10 pin Hirose send/return camera cables.    That could be a bit awkward, especially in a bag!

Tom

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Thanks Richard and Eric,

So then the additional 4 line level inputs on the Fusion 12 are on the Horise 10 pin NOT on the DB15?  I'd love to have the additional inputs, and having an additional 2 analog outputs on the DB25 would be terrific.  However it's too bad you have to make that comprimise.  I'd love to be able to keep the 10 pin Hirose as a quick easy camera link and return.  After all that is pretty much the standard "video camera" connection these days.  Is there no other way on the Fusion 12 to send a pair of outputs to a video camera other than using the DB25?  I can imagine trying to build a breakout cable that connects to both the DB25 and the 10 pin Hirose in an effort to adapt my existing 10 pin Hirose send/return camera cables.    That could be a bit awkward, especially in a bag!

Tom

If you are going to work from a bag, and change setups, you would probably have more than one set of DB25 cables. I'm getting the 10 track version, but I was initially leaning towards the 12. With the 12, I figured I would have a DB25 always mounted to the cart, then at least one for bag work. Possibly a second that only has 3 or 4 connections used. Then again, In a bag will you ever need every output (short of a 4 channel camera hop)? Offhand you might need a camera feeding pair, IFB, possibly a backup/transcription feed too. That's only 4.

It does give you something to ponder more than "is it worth $X.XX more to have 2 more tracks".

I'm ordering mine right now.... good luck!

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Hello people

I'm new to this group. I'm a sound guy from Belgium. Bought a Fusion12 2 months ago.

An advantage of the Fusion 12 is that the cam returns are on the 4 additional line inputs Hirose. That way, you can return 2 separate cameras, or, more important for me, monitor the 2 channels of 1 camera independently.

On the hirose return of the Fusion10, the returns are summed to mono.

The DB25 gives 8 analog outs.

The DB15 connectors are all digital IO.

I made a breakout box ( rugged ), to get analog out1&2 on Tajami ( IO to cam ), Outs 3&4 on XLR, Outs 7&8 on minijack to drive IFB and the like.

The difference in price between a 10 and 12 is not only the different number of tracks and IO configuration, but also includes the effects package. I didn't hesitate a moment and went for a 12...

Grtz,

Steven

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This is something that interests me as well.  I've been told that with the Fusion 12 you have an additional 4 line level analog inputs via the digital inputs.  Is this true?  Also, as johnpaul implied, do you really lose the Hirose 10 pin connection if you go with the Fusion 12?  I've tried to find this stuff out by going to Zaxcom 's website, but I just can't seem to find the answers there.

Thanks,

Tom

I haven’t been on this thread in a while. I have just caught up with the last couple of weeks worth of posts. A lot of great stuff here on many different fronts. Even though I’m late to the party, I have a few thoughts. I bought one of the first Fusions when it came out and now have a Fusion 12. I was concerned about losing the Hirose for beta snake, but was excited to gain the two additional analog outs (as well as the additional A/D converters and two recording tracks).

As much as I love my Fusion, it is unfortunately true that to discover all the functionality of the machine you have to be a bit of a detective. The Zaxcom website is not only uninformative; it is often just plain wrong. The product info for the Fusion 12 has been largely pasted from the Deva and Fusion and incorrectly states that it has a beta snake out with return and even gives its specs as having only 6 analog outputs. Props for the new videos, however. A great addition and I must admit I have not yet watched them all.

Anyway, here is the good news and a solution. The old school camera return from the Fusion 10 is still available in the D-sub of the Fusion 12. I have had an output cable made which has a Hirose 10-pin for outputs 5 and 6 and camera return.

CIMG0037.jpg

This replaces the functionality I lost when I went from the standard Fusion to the Fusion 12 (now that the Hirose is for line inputs 9-12) and enables me to once again use my Beta snakes for a hardline stereo send and return to/from a camera. As with the Fusion 10, the return is unfortunately summed to mono, but assignable in the headphone menu to either or both ears (in the very latest firmware, v7.08). As Steven states, with the Fusion 12 you can use the additional 9-12 line inputs as camera returns and can have two sets of true "stereo" returns. This is a nice option and I was about to make some 4-channel (2 send, 2 return) snakes to accomplish this purpose. which would use the 5-pin XLR on many cameras as return. The truth is that I would rarely use them with the type of jobs I do (or I might just take a 442 instead for that job). This breakout cable enables me to use the beta snakes I already own when I want to cable to a camera with return, and has other outputs as well. This one will work for 99% + of the jobs I do and is as follows: Ch. 1 & 2 to TA5 which goes directly into stereo adapted TRX900AA, Ch 3 and 4 are TA3 males which I break out to XLR when needed, Ch 5 & 6 (and camera return) on Hirose 10-pin, Ch. 7 to right angle XLR male which goes to IFB T4 (for private line to boom or any othr IFB needs), and Ch. 8 to mono male mini plug for Comtek M216.

Thanks to Skyler at Trew audio for letting me know what was hidden in the D-sub. He also informed me that analog output #8 is unbalanced, which is why I chose to dedicate it to Comtek send in this cable. As John Paul mentioned, I also have different output cables. I have one from my old fusion which has 6 outs that I keep as a backup. I'll post this picture since it shows the TA-3 to XLR breakout cables I made to keep the bag lighter when they are not needed.

CIMG0027.jpg

I also have the heavy, cumbersome one from Zaxcom if I ever need 8 XLR outs.

Okay, this post is long enough. Wished I joined earlier to weigh in on trim functions and bwf re-naming, but all in good time.

-Paul

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HUGE thank you to Paul for taking the time to explain in detail his use of the Fusion 12, the breakout I/O cable assemblies he has made up and so forth --- as brilliant as the products are from Zaxcom, the documentation and availability of cable assemblies and accessories has always been lacking. I hope that this improves but for now everyone should be thankful for the efforts coming from people like Paul G.

-  Jeff Wexler

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Yeah, that's a very cool idea having some of the break-out cable as XLRs, and some as TA5's. That's one wrinkle I wouldn't have thought of -- totally avoiding the use of adapters.

Also, breaking up the cable into multiple pieces is much more flexible than a solid outer rubber sleeve, so I think it'll bend around the shelf on a cart a lot easier. Great idea.

What kind of CF cards(speedwise and compatibility wise) do you recommend using with the Fusion?

I've been using the Kingston Elite Pro 133X cards in my Deva 5.8, but I haven't tried to do more than 8 tracks on them, and that's strictly mirroring. The Kingstons are inexpensive and very reliable so far.

--Marc W.

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Well just got my Fusion10 (serial 20115 firm 6.03u) with the free EFX pack promotion, two days ago. I won’t be able to use it on a job until February, so now for the moment I’m just getting familiar with it and playing around with it. I’m also waiting for my 32gb CF cards to do some more serious testings. I "imagined" the Fusion to be bigger as it actually is, build quality is impressive as well as the touch screen, I really love the all the different routing options (disk, outputs, headphones) and how intuitive, easy and fast it is to change the parameters most of them on the fly. Battery life seems to be great but still need to spend more time with it to confirm.

For the moment I have a few doubts and while playing with it found some other things that find a bit awkward.

• The first times I tried to record something the Rec light was flashing red, now after formating the CF cards a few times now it’s steady. Does the flashing Rec light mean something?

• Mirroring and headphone Alarm Tone always defaults to off when you switch on the machine (is that normal or a bug ?) If so is there a reason for this ?

• I couldn’t find a way to erase a specific segment inside a folder (is that possible?)

• In  the Zaxcom’s website they mention the additional EFX pack for the Fusion10 as having EQ, Compressor and Expander . I still can’t find where the Expander settings can be found.

• EFX pack is there is a way of storing user presets of EQ or compressor settings? Which IMO could quite useful.

• I was also surprised of the user interface of the EQ in EFX pack. In the way you need change the different FREG/GAIN/Q  settings. I imagined that being a touch screen interface and having a graphical representation of the EQ, that one could change all the settings directly touching the EQ curves (like many computer based EQ plug-ins).In the Fusion you need to input the values directly using the keypad or a slightly better method I found (LEVL/FREQ mode) is using the keypad as cursor keys but I still find it slow to use it to sweep around the different FREG/GAIN/Q settings. Would be nice if at least the longer you press the button the faster the settings would change instead of a constant speed.

Next are a just few personal things/functions that for the moment I will miss coming from a Sound Devices recorder (things I knew before buying the Fusion, but with the hope that maybe Zaxcom could implement them in future firmware updates)

• No simultaneous double mirroring option (secondary CF AND Firewire)

• No Absolute time counter ( I miss this specially when you playback a take, in playback or cue mode but would also be good to have while recording)

• No Alarm Beep function (Record /Stop Alarms in headphones)

• No analog input limiter activity signal on the screen (Would also be nice to know when the limiters kick in)

Well these are just some of my initial thoughts that wanted to share with the rest of members  that are/were in the situation of comparing and/or trying to decide what recorder to get. Also would like to thank some members that answered some private messages of questions I had concerning the Fusion.

It's a great forum!

-Eric

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Hi Eric,

I'll chime in on a few of your questions. I'm not the authority, however, and could be wrong on some of these. Just sharing my personal experience and knowledge. A revised and more useful owner's manual is long overdue.

>The Rec light should not flash; it should be solid, except it DOES flash when your primary card is almost full. (I think it is 10 minutes of recording left, but I would have to check exactly when it starts flashing).

>I've never used headphone alarm tone, but it is normal for mirroring to be off when you boot up. I can't imagine wanting it to just start mirroring upon booting up. The Fusion/Deva does not automatically mirror the folder you are recording in. You tell it which folder you want to mirror, which tracks (or all), bit depth, etc.

>No way I know of to erase a segment, unless you have false start set to allow deleting and do it that way before recording next segment.

>No expander I am aware of. They added this to the TRX transmitter a while ago, but not the Fusion.

>No presets of EQ or compressor settings. You can copy compressor settings from another channel. Otherwise it is just on or off once you have your parameters.

As far as double mirroring, remember that SD is just mirroring the same as the primary file. Deva/Fusion records primary in MARF and mirrors a different file type. SD cannot mirror a different bit depth than the primary drive is recorded in, as far as I know.

I would also like a visual indication of when the limiters engage. 

As far as CF cards, I have steered clear of the quad channel fast cards. No rational reason.

Anyway, I don't think any of this was particularly useful or insightful, but there you go.  Keep us posted on how things go with your new recorder...and congrats!

-Paul

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Paul

Thanks as always for chiming in :-) Even if you don't consider yourself an authority your experience & knowledge with this recorder are very valuable for me and I suppose for everyone else.

>The Rec light should not flash; it should be solid, except it DOES flash when your primary card is almost full. (I think it is 10 minutes of recording left, but I would have to check exactly when it starts flashing).

>I've never used headphone alarm tone, but it is normal for mirroring to be off when you boot up. I can't imagine wanting it to just start mirroring upon booting up. The Fusion/Deva does not automatically mirror the folder you are recording in. You tell it which folder you want to mirror, which tracks (or all), bit depth, etc..

Thanks! I couldn't find this info concerning the rec light anywhere.I was testing with some small CF cards that I found in my drawer (so that would be the reason). I see that I will need to get used to Zaxcom's mirror philosophy, which on SD recorders is ofcourse different.

No expander I am aware of. They added this to the TRX transmitter a while ago, but not the Fusion.

Mmmm... strange... this a screenshot of Zaxcom's website concerning the additional EFX pack for the Fusion10

10ngxac.jpg

No presets of EQ or compressor settings. You can copy compressor settings from another channel. Otherwise it is just on or off once you have your parameters.

Then maybe yesterday I discovered something :-) In the EQ section if you press the back space button you get this screen where you can save and load up to 5 presets. You don't have the same option in the compressor setting, where as you say you can copy/paste the setting to a different channel

nuaef.jpg

Thanks again for all your help

-Eric

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The Expander has not made it into the software package yet. It is in the wireless system and does sound very good. I will have our Web site changed until the feature is available.

Thank you for pointing out the error

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc

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Hi Eric,

I'm happy to be wrong about the EQ presets. It's like I said before, sometimes you have to be a bit of a detective. ;-)  Here's another little nugget: On the disk mix screen the track number turns to green (instead of black) when the limiter for that track is engaged. Same thing on the output mix screen for the output limiters. Nice.

The title of this thread has become a bit of a misnomer now, but that's okay. When the 788t CL-9 fader panel makes its debut next week that may change.

Paul

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