Jump to content

Headphones Level


Marco Lopez

Recommended Posts

Hello,

It's been a long time that I wanted to know what's the level output that other sound engineers use to feed their headphones and why. And since I'm in this great group now, I can find out.

I'm setting mine in a low level that I can hear clearly the dialogue. During the rehearsal I raise the level to make sure that nothing weird is happening and then I go down again.

I would dare to say that this matter is also related to Mr. Wexler's topic "Petition to END LONG HOURS".

Best regards,

Marco

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to run it quite high on my 302...it gives me better and earlier recognition of extraneous noises...it also gives me a bigger dynamic range....and I just love the richness of my Schoeps mics......worth listening to them at the best sounding they will ever be....hey but thats just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am listening on Beyer DT48 , and headphone level on my Cantar X2 is setup - 6db to - 4 db . As I like to record everything almost to the top ,and don't have problems if limiter start to blimp, this level is working for me . I like this headphones , using them for 10 years, they can be very heavy on your ears , I tried to use MDR 7506 , but on them bass is to strong (for my taste ) and everything sound "very good" , so I think DT 48 is more realistic .

I would love to hear more about DT48 users and also others who are using different models of headphones.

Thank 's

best

Novica Jankov

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am listening on Beyer DT48 , and headphone level on my Cantar X2 is setup - 6db to - 4 db . As I like to record everything almost to the top ,and don't have problems if limiter start to blimp, this level is working for me . I like this headphones , using them for 10 years, they can be very heavy on your ears , I tried to use MDR 7506 , but on them bass is to strong (for my taste ) and everything sound "very good" , so I think DT 48 is more realistic .

I would love to hear more about DT48 users and also others who are using different models of headphones.

Thank 's

best

Novica Jankov

Have no clue as to what level I listen at with my Ultrasones. I just turn up the level till it sounds comfortable then I stop. On my 442 the HP pot is around 11-12 o'clock with normal interview dialog if that helps.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for starters, I abandoned DT-48's a long, long time ago, in favor of SONY headphones (now up to the standard 7506 model). This was not an easy transition since the headphones we use are so crucial to the job we do and consistency in the monitoring experience is so important. The DT-48's were just too uncomfortable for me. Regarding monitoring level, I do listen fairly hot (difficult to quantify since the Cooper 208, and many other devices, are not really calibrated) and I always have. This allows me to hear even those low level noises that most probably will not be "heard" by anyone else or in the final mix --- I feel it is still important to be able to hear these things and then to know, from experience, what will be a problem and what will not. As for level, consistency and predictability are key --- you are making decisions based on some constant and definable reference and since our most valuable measurement tool is our ears, the headphone level should always remain the same. That said, turning down the level in very loud scenes (with gunfire perhaps?) is essential. The practice that you mention, turning up the level to listen for stuff and then turning it back down to what I would possibly consider too low a level, is probably not a good idea in my book.

I will add to this, as I'm sure Eric will agree, that we tend to increase our standard monitor level as we get older (what a surprise) and this is just part of the game. I remember visiting Jim Webb on one of his last jobs and you could hear his headphones from 10 feet away.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for starters, I abandoned DT-48's a long, long time ago, in favor of SONY headphones (now up to the standard 7506 model). This was not an easy transition since the headphones we use are so crucial to the job we do and consistency in the monitoring experience is so important. The DT-48's were just too uncomfortable for me. Regarding monitoring level, I do listen fairly hot (difficult to quantify since the Cooper 208, and many other devices, are not really calibrated) and I always have. This allows me to hear even those low level noises that most probably will not be "heard" by anyone else or in the final mix --- I feel it is still important to be able to hear these things and then to know, from experience, what will be a problem and what will not. As for level, consistency and predictability are key --- you are making decisions based on some constant and definable reference and since our most valuable measurement tool is our ears, the headphone level should always remain the same. That said, turning down the level in very loud scenes (with gunfire perhaps?) is essential. The practice that you mention, turning up the level to listen for stuff and then turning it back down to what I would possibly consider too low a level, is probably not a good idea in my book.

I will add to this, as I'm sure Eric will agree, that we tend to increase our standard monitor level as we get older (what a surprise) and this is just part of the game. I remember visiting Jim Webb on one of his last jobs and you could hear his headphones from 10 feet away.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

I have found that after listening for so many years we learn how to monitor at reasonable levels as we have learned how to listen past the dialog and focus on the stuff that might cause a problem. I'm a firm believer that bkg sounds that appear to be somewhat problematic on phones are almost inaudible on monitor speakers. Experience is a great teacher.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I like about my Etymotic ER4-P  canalphones is that I can listen at low levels and get all the detail.  Normal level on a 442 headphone pot is around 8 or 9 o'clock, if I'm really needing to crank it I might go to 11 o'clock.

I used to use DT-48s but got tired of the headache and the bald spot from the headband..  I didn't have a huge transition period, the Etymotics are somewhat similar to the DT-48 sonically. (meaning tons of high frequency detail and somewhat reduced bass)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I like about my Etymotic ER4-P  canalphones is that I can listen at low levels and get all the detail.  Normal level on a 442 headphone pot is around 8 or 9 o'clock, if I'm really needing to crank it I might go to 11 o'clock.

I used to use DT-48s but got tired of the headache and the bald spot from the headband..  I didn't have a huge transition period, the Etymotics are somewhat similar to the DT-48 sonically. (meaning tons of high frequency detail and somewhat reduced bass)

One thing to keep in mind is the efficiency or impedence of the phones. A more efficient set of phones will require less gain to drive them to normal levels. While the ER4-P appear to work fine at 8-9 o'clock because of it's smaller drivers and in ear placement, a set of full sized HP's will require the pot to go to perhaps 10-11 o'clock to achieve the same level.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HD-25 Senn.... the best I have used yet.  I used to use 7506 but found the bass a bit distracting and unrealistic.  ( just listen to some music with both, I found that the Senn had a much flatter response)

On my Cantar I listen at max -10db.  Vin whao that's loud at -6!

Jason I agree with you.  I now understand what disappears on broadcast and also the lovely tools we have to clean up background.  It really is amazing.  I listen at a comfortable level that let's me discern the clarity of the dialogue or sound affect, and BG noise, but also keeping in mind that level that can become dangerous for out long term health.  I is our responsibility to look after ourselves.

I once had a listen to an open mic that an older sound mixer was using on set.  I put the headphones on and almost shit my pants!  It was so loud I thought something was wrong.  He later told me that it was his usual mixing volume.

B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  I use the HN-7506 so my volume is low and I can still hear everything (an nothing around me!).  I tend to like dialog to peak between -7 and -2 on the Deva, and my headphones knob is at 1:30p for almost everything.  Sometimes I have to turn them down momentarily and let me ears relax, that's when I figure I'm listening a little loud, or there's a little too much bass in my background.  Also I sometimes, if I think I hear something bad, jack up the volume for a moment.

  I have become accustomed to what kind of "quiet" is actually "quiet enough" and let me tell you, I hear noise on my cans alla time!  I have played back quiet scenes on my sweet Harmon/Kardon home stereo and I don't hear ANY hiss, but at the time I was recording it was all could hear!

  I had a boom op who used regular 7506 cans, and it was so loud when he went to talk to me we'd get feedback.  Tisk tisk.  I always made a point that his cans were way too loud.

  Hey I heard in the UK boom ops don't wear headphones; that they tell the mixer what to do and basically run the sound department without cans - can that possibly be true?!

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  Oh yeah I forgot to say, I used to rock the Senny HD-250 cans back when they were made, super comfy (= covered the entire ear without pressure) and sounded good.  But they were so soft, I always had the level about 20 - 25% hotter than Sonys.  The HD-25 don't cover the entire ears so they would surely bring my pain.

  btw I can't wear the regular 7506s for hours, my ear cartilage gets sore, and those 'pretty' fabric Sony 7506 covers make it worse, I cannot understand how people can wear those for hours!

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, as Rich V.Dyke suggests, if something is loud, it should feel so in the headphones as well -- of course within limits so as to not damage hearing. I too feel it is not really important as to what exact level you set your headphones at, so long as you can discern everything. Rich, i too have a pair of Ultrasones which i cannot use on the job.

Mr. Jim Webb is not the  same as the newbie i met one day on a set who was monitoring very loudly on his sony headphones. Experience matters. And age does matter as well.

-vin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One tip I do offer is that I like to have the level set so that when something gets LOUD it sounds LOUD to me.  So if something is hitting a peak on my recorder it's hitting a peak to my headset.  If you listen too low, peaks won't sound like peaks in my opinion and you might record something too hot.

RVD

This is very good advice and RVD makes a very good point. One of the main things we are doing when "mixing" (even if it is just one microphone) is managing dynamic range --- not so much for the reasons we used to: limited dynamic range of the recording medium, low level modulation noise, high level distorsion, print through, etc., but rather to record the natural dynamic of speech, as faithfully as possible in a scene. The perception of dynamic range will be seriously altered if your listening level is too low.

-  Jeff Wexler 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely correct Jeff......it doesn't matter as much about your hardware and where everything is set in comparison to the main thing...Your Ears.....this is where it has to sound right...and as has been said, consistent level is critical or it changes where your perception of where your day to day levels are.

Also remember,when you start each day,when your ears are fresh,this is when everything sounds its loudest for the day...and you think..am I really monitoring at this level? Human hearing is a wondrous thing....but be careful, there are many variations that have to do with the physical make up of the ear.

Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson Curve.

http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

You'll notice the 55db difference between the low frequencies where we are less sensitive, to the area around 4 to 5K where we are most sensitive.So there are good reasons why they make headphones for us mere humans with a higher apparent level of bass end.It compensates for our less sensitivity there.

Now the other thing you can all try is this....get a small set of speakers that you might have for your TV or bookshelf and have a listen to them at the level you watch TV and at the distance you would sit from them...then move them close together on either side of your head as though they were your headphones...if you can arrange to listen to the same material....notice the difference that you can now hear with the background levels,noise and general system noise...the corollary of this is to just plug your headphones into your TV set and notice all the background stuff you don't hear in your armchair.....so its how close you are to the monitor that determines the detail.

For feature films and the cinema presentations, this all changes especially with the levels that cinemas are set up to...so you will hear a lot more and this is why you listen at the relatively high levels,to hear any extraneous material before it gets to be recorded....

Having spent 20 years as a rerecording mixer,you get to appreciate the difficult job that is faced by the Production Mixers of today...and the fidelity of the current systems...a far cry from the Academy Curve that hid so much, including all the high frequencies....lol...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to listen as low as I can and still hear a bit of the background.  I use 7506.  When I hear an offending sound I often do the following test:  I slowly duck the hp gain down until the offending sound mostly disappears into the noise floor.. then I judge if the voice (or whatever signal) is still clear and intelligible.  If it is, then I often don't worry about the noise, If the voice sounds too weak or low then I will go about trying to make things better. 

But I mostly work on TV where I know the audio will be run through the mill before it ever flys out the 2" tv speakers and hits the end-viewers eardrums... so it is what it is much of the time..

An interesting note:

I once commented to Ron Meyer at PSC about the Alphamix having a fairly weak headphone amp.. His response was that the headphone amp on the Alpha was designed to be in spec with OSHA's guidelines for safe sound pressure levels for human exposure in the workplace.. according to him it's one of the few mixers on the market that adheres to that spec.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found the 0 mark on the 788T to be a good listening volume.  Working for mixers in the past, I have found levels set from very soft to ear-splitting loud (a more... shall I say "experienced" mixer).

It's good to hear the background noise problems, but if you can't hear them at a reasonable monitoring level in headphones, my opinion is that they are not going to be a problem in the final mix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found the 0 mark on the 788T to be a good listening volume.  Working for mixers in the past, I have found levels set from very soft to ear-splitting loud (a more... shall I say "experienced" mixer).

"Experienced" as in older? They may be employing the standard male defense mechanism called S.L.S. otherwise known as "Selective Listening Syndrome". Ask your wife or girl friend about it, they are experts on that subject.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main thing I find I have to watch out for in monitoring off field audio gear is that what I'm hearing in the phones seems to have a relationship to what the meters are doing.  If you aren't careful it is easy to monitor loud and under-record, or monitor quiet and be clipping the peaks.  The former is something I think a lot of prosumer video camera operators do a lot--I think it is the reason why I get so much under-recorded audio on indie projects, which then has to be massively boosted in level and then noise-reduced.  In the studio we work at a very tightly controlled level all the time (calibrated) so what we are hearing makes sense with the rest of the chain.  I try to stay as consistent as I can in the field, if only because our hearing has different frequency response at different volume levels.  The 7506s (or any other high quality headphone) do hear more than is often discerned on consumer playback gear, but keep in mind that a lot of work goes into your tracks (usually) before the consumer hears them--esp BG noise reduction.  I think of the wide freq response of these heaphones as being like a camera viewfinder that shows you what is just outside the frame--you can hear problems coming before they ruin something important.

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  Hey do y'all ever notice some days, while your meters and headphones level are the same, the cans are too loud and other days too soft?  There must be some kind of physiological reason for this.  Like when you wake up (after 8 hour sleep) you're an inch or so taller because your joints have relaxed, maybe when you eat pickles before going to bed and sleep less than 8 hours your ears are somehow more sensitive?

  Like when you're listening to music in the car on the highway, at a level that's way too loud for normal neighborhood streets, but if you make it lower on the highway you can't hear the detail.  Weird shit man.  I guess that's noise floor stuff.

  Oh yes, I love and strictly adhere to RVD's "if it's a loud sound, it should sound loud in your cans" MO, loud = meters hitting above -5.

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...