On Camera Documentary Mic

[steveharnell]

Hello Everybody,

I am shooting an "up close and personal" doc right now with an HPX170. Mic on top goes to CH1, Wireless Lav goes to CH2.

Most the content takes place in doors, people's apartments or music studios.

I have an MKH60, which is kinda large to put on top of the camera with the dead cat and all, but I have been doing that. My other complaint is that it's too directional. I would like to pickup more of what's going on in the room, rather than what I am pointing at. Also, sometimes I can hear myself breath from behind the camera especially when my eye is in the eye piece. I have the low cut enabled when in use, too.

I also have access to a scheops CMC6/MK41. I used it this week and it sounds real natural. It's less "bass-y" than the MKH60, and smaller, BUT the baby ball gag and dead cat make it somewhat larger than I think it should be. I have a cut 2 filter enable at level 2 when in use, too.

I did a quick search for "On Camera Mics" here at jwsound and on google and the Sanken CS-1 kept coming up.

Other than the Sanken CS-1 being smaller (which is good), will I benefit in terms of the overall quality of sound? Correct me if I am wrong, but the CS-1 is missing the rear lobe, so proximity effects go away and maybe hearing myself breathe from behind?

So, should I stick with what I got or go with the Sanken CS-1?

Thanks for your input.

Steve

[jason porter]

Rode NTG-1?

[Philip Perkins]

I'm mixing a small doc right now where the one man band filmmaker had an MKH60, and it did very well for him I think.  Most of the time with an on-board mic directionality is your friend--you usually won't have any trouble hearing everything going on in a room, more than you want probably.  The 60 is WAY better sounding than all the cheapo mics sold for on-camera use, it is a real professional tool, very rugged, and very immune to RF and humidity issues.  I say stick with what you have and figure out a better mount for yourself.

Philip Perkins

[studiomprd]

" missing the rear lobe, so proximity effects go away and maybe hearing myself breathe from behind? "

apples and grean beans...

proximity effect is an increase in LF response for sounds close to the front of the mic.  the rear lobe is part of the polar pattern...

there are mounts that get the mic away(elevated) from the camcorder a bit, that may help with the breathing pickup...

[steveharnell]

so no "love" for the Sanken CS-1 as on camera mic?

[DBurnette]

I have a fairly profound dislike for the CS-1. I find it to be somewhat abnormally bright, and found it to sound like crap with the EX-1 it was on. It sounded as though it was compressing to the extent it was 'breathing' or pumping. Maybe I didn't have the camera set up correctly...Maybe there was a problem elsewhere in the signal chain.

Either way, I've never gotten the sound I want out of that mic, as an on-camera or through a mixer...And leads to another issue: There is a problem using the mic with some SD preamps. I can dig up the whitepaper, but I believe it concerns a mismatch involving the DC bias.

Aside from production, I was frustrated mixing it with other mics. It just didn't mesh well with countryman/Lectro 401 audio, or the -81i used for other shots

...But then again, I'm not the most experienced person, so some of it could have been me.

[ProSound]

I bought a Cs-1 when it first came out and found it didn't match well either with my Sanken Cos-11. I found I just liked my 416 better and sold it within 6 months of buying it.

[John Blankenship]

I've owned a couple of CS-1s and sold them both.  Don't get me wrong, they're a good mic for the price.  However, since I own better (and more expensive) sound gathering devices, I decided the Sankens didn't have a place in my arsenal. 

I would typically deploy a CS-1 in a situation where I wanted a wider pattern than a full short shotgun would provide, and quite frankly, in that circumstance, a Schoeps is my #1 choice.  That's unfair to the CS-1, of course, since the Schoeps is in a whole different universe, price-wise.  However, I probably wouldn't use a Schoeps as an on-camera mic.  It's a bit pricey for that application and handling noise could be an issue there.

If you like the Sennheiser MKH60 but need a wider pattern, then consider a 50 or 40.

I'd say talk to your local professional sound dealer and try some options.  The Sanken might just fit your price-performance point, however, the extended low end could be an issue.  Also, Rode has some cost-effective choices that may be well worth checking out for that application.

An on-camera mic is a huge compromise sound-wise, of course, so your choice depends a good part upon where on the scale you wish to make the price/performance compromise in your microphone choice.

After you choose, let us know your findings.

John B.

[Derek H]

Another option that may be interesting here is the Sennheiser 8050 or the 8040.  Similar wider pattern to the Schoeps, but in an even smaller package.  To combat handling noise I would suggest the new rycote camera mount that uses the invision lyres, I think it's designed to fit in a hot-shoe mount.  Alternatively you could get the Rycote CCA part that is designed to fit into the built in mic cradle.  Not sure what you would do for wind protection.. ball gag?

[Don Barto]

There are times when a camera Mic is in exactly the best possible position to mic something or someone...like when there is room to get a camera in someone's face, but no room for a sound guy or gal.  But there are also many disadvantages to relying solely on a camera mic, and it looks like you have found a few of them.  

Have you considered mounting your MKH60 onto a mic stand (with or without heavy wind protection, as appropriate)...or mounting the mic first onto a boom, and then rigging the boom onto a C-stand or other sturdy light stand?  It would let you reach up and out to perhaps a better-sounding mic perspective than what you are getting from on-camera;  gone would be the handling noise and breathing problems...not to mention the imbalance of mounting a large mic onto a small, light camera....and you would then be able to frame and re-frame a variety of shots while maintaining a constant audio perspective.  A good thing, usually.  Yes, as positions of the subjects before the camera shift around, you would need to reposition the mic and stand...but that's all a part of capturing good sound.  I doubt that your MKH60 back at the camera is too directional...I bet it's just that as you point it away from the sound source...to get a different shot...you of course get a a corresponding shift in the sound perspective.

If you are determined to do sound as well as video all by yourself, you should consider going beyond the hidden-lav-and-camera-mic stage when you can.    Everyone reading this post uses a stationary mic on a boom that is held into optimum position by some sort of a fixed stand....when they do sit-down interviews. Why?  Because it really sounds great and it's easy to do...with any cardioid or hyper-cardioid mic.    How much of what you are shooting right now might sound better miced from a fixed boom mic, as opposed to a camera mic.  Many times a camera mic simply pays lip service (no pun)  to the task of capturing good sound...particularly capturing good dialog....but all too often it just doesn't do a very good job, simply because it's just not in the right place at all to do the job.

[martijn scholte]

i like the AKG blue line mic its cheap and good

cheers

martijn

[Marc Wielage]

The Sennheiser 416 is about an inch and a half shorter than the MKH60 and sounds very close. But given that the 60 is paid for, I think it'd make sense to just stick with that.

If it's too directional, then the (much smaller) MKH50 or the newer 8050 might be better, in the right mount (as Derek says above). The key to me is to isolate the mike from the handling noise of the camera, and that's not always easy with these tiny doco cams these days.

--Marc W.