Question for the bag mixer guys

[engaudio]

Are we talking video editors or audio editors? An audio editor worth his/her salt should never let something like that slip past them.

All I know is that I heard the camera mic on air... 

Grant.

[studiomprd]

I'm going to amplify my previous post:

no matter what you do, sometimes crap happens!!

[Glen Trew]

I had a couple of customers in my shop the other day.  They started a rather heated discussion about which channel the boom microphone should be plugged into.   One guy insisted the 1st channel (left most fader) the other guy insisted the last channel (right most fader).   They both had valid points and both thought the other one was wrong.   It's a quiet week so I thought I would ask all of you with time on your hands which channel you use and why?

Thanks

Ron Meyer

PSC  

In both the bag and the cart I have always been in the habit of putting the boom on the far right because it put the most often used input control closer to the master and monitor controls (the notable exception being the Filmtech LSP4). This also allows the wireless receivers to be numbered the same as the input numbers (wireless 1-4 could go to inputs 1-4, respectively). To justify this even more, I'll point out that this habit began in my TV studio days when the console was eight feet long and input 1 was clear across the room (so I reserved input 1 for kick drum).

However, just last month I changed my cart mixer setup so that my input channels automatically took the same order as my recording channels, and since my boom mic(s) always came just after the mono mix (mix on ch 1, boom on ch 2), I've started putting my primary boom on input channel 1 and second boom on 2, followed by wireless and whatever else on the remaining inputs. I'll do the same with my bag setup.

I was surprised, but even after 30 years of doing it just the opposite, it wasn't any problem at all to make the change. So, Ron, I'm happy to report that, in my opinion, it really doesn't make much difference, but it's nice to have either option.

Glen Trew

[Jeff Wexler]

I was surprised, but even after 30 years of doing it just the opposite, it wasn't any problem at all to make the change. So, Ron, I'm happy to report that, in my opinion, it really doesn't make much difference, but it's nice to have either option.

Glen Trew

You're a bigger man than I, Glen. I still have to use the far right input (input 8 on my Cooper) for the boom mic (usually the only mic I am using!) because of the physical location and all the rest of that crap I was talking about. I really don't think I could change --- so, with all the routing possibilties we have now I just make it work with a combination of everything from really weird input > track assignments and physical labeling of my patchbay, etc. Don Coufal knows his duplex is "plugged into MIC 1" on the patchbay, but of course that goes to input 8 on the Cooper.

-  Jeff Wexler

[John Blankenship]

I've done it both ways based on many of the reasons already given.  I still sometimes switch the bag around when I think the opposite way will work better in a given situation.

Occasionally, a producer will voice a track preference based upon standardizing how a particular project is being handled in post.

For cart work, I like the boom on the last track so each wireless mic will correspond numerically to the fader it's on.  So, I work my way across the board (from left to right) for wireless and reserve the last one (or occasionally, two) for boom(s).

I have an additional thought that brings about another question:

Let's say you're mixing two channels to camera and you have a boom in one channel and lav in the other.  But, then, you use just the boom for a while.  Do you leave the other track silent, or mix the boom into both.  I prefer to leave the other track silent so that post can know that if there's something on both tracks, they're different and they'll need to choose the best audio mix.  Quite a few mixers I've talked to always insist on filling both tracks with sound.  I've also encountered producers who hate the thought of "wasting" a channel and prefer to feed the solitary boom to both channels.

I feel that it can either waste time in post as the editor listens to decide if there's a difference between tracks, or worse, the editor tires of trying to find where the tracks are different and where they're not, and just picks one for expediency.

What is the consensus on this?

John B.

[studiomprd]

" duplex is "plugged into MIC 1" on the patchbay, but of course that goes to input 8 on the Cooper. "

some of us read, and number, from left to right...

Shalom!

[Eric Toline]

I have an additional thought that brings about another question:

Let's say you're mixing two channels to camera and you have a boom in one channel and lav in the other.  But, then, you use just the boom for a while.  Do you leave the other track silent, or mix the boom into both.  I prefer to leave the other track silent so that post can know that if there's something on both tracks, they're different and they'll need to choose the best audio mix.  Quite a few mixers I've talked to always insist on filling both tracks with sound.  I've also encountered producers who hate the thought of "wasting" a channel and prefer to feed the solitary boom to both channels.

I feel that it can either waste time in post as the editor listens to decide if there's a difference between tracks, or worse, the editor tires of trying to find where the tracks are different and where they're not, and just picks one for expediency.

What is the consensus on this?

John B.

===================================================================================

For me, if "Bill" is on track one and "Mary" is on track two that's where they stay. If either leave for whatever reason then the other person stays where I put them and the unused track is silent. I also like to set the mixer up as I look at the scene so that the person on my left goes into the furthest left input, the next person goes into the next input and so on regardless of the track assigment.

Eric

[JDirckze]

I always use both tracks, so if person on Lav moves away I pan my boom to center. It's like having a backup in case anything goes wrong. Always need to remember to pan the boom track back when Lav comes back into shot though... been caught out a couple times.

I tracklay in post when I'm not on the road, and I can usually visually tell if tracks are identical. When I do my dialogue edit pass, I methodically check both tracks, listening to each carefully. If something is missed in the first pass, you will always pick it up during other passes.

Every now and then when my lavs are sounding good and I'm tired/lazy/been working for 12 days straight, and have say, 2 people both on lavs, I'll pan one person left and the other right. I guess what I'm saying is, every situation is different and at a whim I will change my "usual" setup.

[chrisnewton]

in the bag: boom on input 4 of 442. When booming I tend to favour my right hand for holding boom, mix with left. 

[Jimmy Tuffrey]

What is the consensus on this?

John B.

Tending to do it your way. Trying to resist the urge to put things on both tracks. I feel it confuses things and that it's un-necessarily cautious to double things. As likely to cause issues at the other end as it is to save me in the event of equipment failure. I can handle the odd mistake. If it was a one off with the president then... I'd have two mic's out so it would not be relevant.

[Derek H]

I also throw the boom on the last fader.  My reasoning is the same as some others in that it boggles my mind a bit if my wireless 1-4 doesn't also line up with input/fader 1-4.  Boom goes on the last fader and I generally pan it right (talking eng sound to camera, 2 track) just to keep the left-right motif consistent. 

I also prefer to fill both tracks if the host on radio runs out of scene.  In that case I usually pan the boom center and then bring the radio out of the mix.  No great reason to do this I guess but I find it annoying to listen to only one side of the cans and I think it usually bothers the camera-op as well.  As far as post figuring it out I agree.. it's just 2 tracks they can listen to both and pick one it's not brain surgery!

-d

[John Blankenship]

...As far as post figuring it out I agree.. it's just 2 tracks they can listen to both and pick one it's not brain surgery!

I get the sense you haven't done a lot of post, at least not under "firing line" conditions (certainly correct me if I'm wrong, after all, these are only opinions here).

It's not brain surgery but it does take additional selection time.

A great deal of post is all about speed -- often, more so where audio is concerned.  Anything that slows the process down can mean further compromises in the amount of critical attention audio gets.

John B.

[Marc Wielage]

A great deal of post is all about speed -- often' date=' more so where audio is concerned.  Anything that slows the process down can mean further compromises in the amount of critical attention audio gets.[/quote']

Very true. I think it's best to proceed with a "Keep It Simple" policy for post. Assume that total morons are going to get your material -- and I say this kindly, since I've often worked as one of those morons -- and make the audio material so easy to deal with, they can't possibly screw it up. That means keeping the main mix on 1 (or 1 & 2), keeping everything clearly labeled, tones on the head, -20 reference levels, and all that other stuff.

And I also know of old-school picture editors who are annoyed if you try to give them more than 1 or 2 tracks for dailies. A lot of them just don't wanna hear from multi-tack, not at that stage. I think this is starting to change, but for now, simplicity is best, since that will help the post people work faster.

--Marc W.

[hemmerlinj]

I use a 442 and always have the boom in channel 4.  As others have noted it keeps the cable clear of the shorties I use for my wires.  I think I also started doing it because I'm right handed and the fader was closer.  And I like to keep both hands on the boom as much as possible, but when I do need to make an adjustment on the faders I'll support the boom with my right hand  and reach down with my left hand with the boom being counter balanced in the pit of my elbow.  This naturally leads me hand more towards the right side of the mixer, and I tend to make more adjustments to the level of the boom.

Jason H

[Daniel McIntosh]

From my doco days with a Nagra 4.2 I plugged my Schoeps CMC4 into input 2 as that had the QPM3-5 T-powering.  I boomed with my left hand and operated the Nagra main function selector, mic level control(s), tape/direct switch, and the bloop slate (mounted on either my shoulder strap or velcroed to the front of the Kangaroo case) with my right hand.  There was no input routing.

With my SQN 4S or SD 442 I boom with my left hand and use input 4, keeping my right hand close to the tape/direct switch and headphone level/selector.  I have always routed the boom to ch2 on video cameras if I felt the need to split the tracks, and if only using one mic I would pan 50% of the level over to ch1.

With my Cooper 208 I have boom 1 in input 8, and boom 2 in input 7.  My right hand operates these faders as well as the output section, including headphone selection and remote roll.  My radio mics are on the left side of the board, usually with the first actor to speak in input 1, etc.  The recorder routing is industry standard: Mix to ch1, boom to ch2, boom 2 or RF 1 to ch3, etc.