Eric Toline Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I did a job last September where the shooter did not want a hop to his new EX3 as he didn't trust them and was concerned about them scratching his camera. Then he complained about being tethered. Sometimes you can't win for losing. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 The can of worms has been opened! I like this thread, Justanross: 500 for 10hrs seems high to me for a basic kit (2 wires, mixer, boom, cable) unless you are referring to a flat rate that includes your labor fee as well? Without having a flat-out rates disclosure (which seems to be an unwritten no-no) maybe you can confirm this? I generally quote about half that amount for the basic kit but bill my labor separately.. I agree hops are not to be taken lightly, good wireless gear is pricey, although I'm fine with them being considered standard issue gear if the standard issue pay also goes up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Richard, I think equipment negotiation tips and tips on other basic industry rules are useful across all genres, so please continue to advise. Misunderstandings and such can still bring out useful information. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 " concerned about them scratching his camera. " another 'dink' ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted January 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 The can of worms has been opened! I like this thread, Justanross: 500 for 10hrs seems high to me for a basic kit (2 wires, mixer, boom, cable) unless you are referring to a flat rate that includes your labor fee as well? Without having a flat-out rates disclosure (which seems to be an unwritten no-no) maybe you can confirm this? I generally quote about half that amount for the basic kit but bill my labor separately.. I agree hops are not to be taken lightly, good wireless gear is pricey, although I'm fine with them being considered standard issue gear if the standard issue pay also goes up Hey Derek, No that includes labour. Basically it breaks down to being 30 bucks an hour for a 10 hour day is 300 plus 200 for gear rental. I have heard some people only give one wire at that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 No, sounds like you had it right. Ha! me thinks so too. Long time ago I worked with some Germans out here in Bombay. WE had hops available, which he was ok with me using in a couple of hours shoot in an open beach. Then when we went to shoot a busy wedding, he did not want me to go with wireless hops. I said ok, but i constricted him from moving away a number of times, especially when he wanted to go off, just like that. Yet, that did not make him ask for me to use the hops. He was a "dink", for sure. Heh. All this did not deter me from getting the sound i wanted to get, most of the time. I did attemp to capture the stuff that was being shot (camera-centric sound) so long as I knew what he was shooting. The moment he started moving randomly, I pulled the "leash"... Heh!!! I dont know what he was thinking, because he would not tell me anything, despite the fact that he knew English well. Anyways, that shoot ended the same night for me - they shot 17 hours, the last 5 hours without even drinking water available, location 3 hours away from my home, and the director asked me to come in to the shoot at a location that was an hour away from my place, at a time that gave me 3 hours to sleep. He told me "this is the way i have worked for many years". I told him "Well, I think you need many more years to figure out how to work the right way, and you can another sound guy to subject to your bullshit". The next morning, at around 7AM i kept getting repeated calls from his 'production manager' - the guy who could not even arrange for drinking water the earlier night. I ignored his calls - they were to ask me if i could come over to the location and re-join the shoot. I had someone from his team come home to collect the DAT tape of the day's recording and pay me my money - time and a half for the earlier day. Hasta la vista. Goodbye and good riddance. What a day i had - a dink and a dunk (head). -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 actually, after that short turn-around, you would have come in at double-time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Slater Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I am missing out on what the term "dink" means.? Here in Australia it is short for " Double Income No Kids. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I am missing out on what the term "dink" means.? Here in Australia it is short for " Double Income No Kids. " That's what it means here, too. I think he wanted to write "dick" but perhaps was trying to sugar-coat it a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Look "dink" up in www.urbandictionary.com for the more contemporary meaning. As this a "family" site I didn't want to cut & paste all the meanings. I leave that to your imagination. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted January 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Alright gang, Here's how it's going down. I talked with the post sound supervisor, he's going to come out to set for the first few days. They want to try using the D4 and using the 4 tracks on the camera. The camera is the Panasonic HDX900. I have a 442 mixer. We are aware we need special cables, since tracks 3 and 4 are coming from the 5pin with mic input only. He is also bring a edirol 4 track recorder for back up. Now we are testing this out and "seeing" if we can make it work. Any ideas or thoughts from you guys would be great. Next thing. I start on the 15th and work til the 1st, my 442 and four wires are good for this job. Next month we are in a different city. I'm gonna need to run 6 wires at most for the next job. I'm thinking of buying a 302 and linking. I've never done this. Am I just taking a stereo feed from it? And it get's mixed with the tracks from the 442? But I'm wondering if I should push a 788 with a CL8 more? If I am linking two mixers tracks 5 and 6 won't be ISO they'll just be mixed in with the stereo. Again, please your thoughts and ideas. Thank you so much for your time. Justan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Justan, Keep in mind, complication can be your enemy in situations such as this, whereas, simplicity can be your friend. Simplicity would aim you toward the 788 combo. John B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted January 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Justan, Keep in mind, complication can be your enemy in situations such as this, whereas, simplicity can be your friend. Simplicity would aim you toward the 788 combo. John B. I totally agree. But as per usual it's a budget thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Next thing. I start on the 15th and work til the 1st, my 442 and four wires are good for this job. Next month we are in a different city. I'm gonna need to run 6 wires at most for the next job. I'm thinking of buying a 302 and linking. I've never done this. Am I just taking a stereo feed from it? And it get's mixed with the tracks from the 442? But I'm wondering if I should push a 788 with a CL8 more? If I am linking two mixers tracks 5 and 6 won't be ISO they'll just be mixed in with the stereo. Again, please your thoughts and ideas. Thank you so much for your time. Justan Hi Justan, I've linked a two 442s together as well as a 302 and 442. The link sends the two outputs of one mixer into the other mixer via the mix in buss. Two 442s linked would yield 8 input channels. You would still have the pre fade direct outs available on the input channels. You would also have the xlr or multipin main outs from both mixers because they are not used for linking. Linking a 302 is the same but you would get 7 input channels. Again you would have the direct outs from the 442 for isos, but since the 302 doesn't have direct outs the only way to get isos from that mixer would be from the main xlr outs. You would have to have the two wires in the 302 panned left and right to have them separated but that panning also determines what the 442 sees in the mix in buss. The CL8/788t would be a more elegant and potentially lighter solution, but what you are thinking could work. What are you planning to record the 6 channels on if you use the linked mixers? Off topic: Are you still selling your 442? Best, Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted January 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Next thing. I start on the 15th and work til the 1st, my 442 and four wires are good for this job. Next month we are in a different city. I'm gonna need to run 6 wires at most for the next job. I'm thinking of buying a 302 and linking. I've never done this. Am I just taking a stereo feed from it? And it get's mixed with the tracks from the 442? But I'm wondering if I should push a 788 with a CL8 more? If I am linking two mixers tracks 5 and 6 won't be ISO they'll just be mixed in with the stereo. Again, please your thoughts and ideas. Thank you so much for your time. Justan Hi Justan, I've linked a two 442s together as well as a 302 and 442. The link sends the two outputs of one mixer into the other mixer via the mix in buss. Two 442s linked would yield 8 input channels. You would still have the pre fade direct outs available on the input channels. You would also have the xlr or multipin main outs from both mixers because they are not used for linking. Linking a 302 is the same but you would get 7 input channels. Again you would have the direct outs from the 442 for isos, but since the 302 doesn't have direct outs the only way to get isos from that mixer would be from the main xlr outs. You would have to have the two wires in the 302 panned left and right to have them separated but that panning also determines what the 442 sees in the mix in buss. The CL8/788t would be a more elegant and potentially lighter solution, but what you are thinking could work. What are you planning to record the 6 channels on if you use the linked mixers? Off topic: Are you still selling your 442? Best, Bernie Hey Bernie, Yes, what I need is six tracks. And to answer the second Question is yes I am selling it. Email me at justanross@gmail.com and we can talk more. My gut is telling me that I shouldn't do the second job unless I'm gonna get a 788 with a CL8. Linking and everything else seems like it would be to much of a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 I would also point out that a 2 x 442 rig with 6 or 8 RX and maybe a BU recorder and 2 hop TX and batteries is going to be HEAVY, and BIG. And you have some long days ahead of you..... Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 I have the 788T/CL8, and I can't imagine doing the same thing with 2 mixers and a recorder in the bag. But I am getting old. The 788T/CL8 will accomplish what you need for the first and second job with more ease than what you are currently proposing. It can't be much more expensive than the current mixer/Edirol situation. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 actually, after that short turn-around, you would have come in at double-time! No thank you - I'd pass on such jobs - I dont like working with such people really. -vin (moving away from this thread, I'm feeding it too much OT stuff!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 This thread is a little old, but I'm bringing it back as I find it interesting and I might be embarking on some 'reality' situations shortly. Where I am located right now, it seems the the soundies in the area are charging flat rates, that is gear and labor into one bundle, so that is what I have grown accustomed too. I am familiar with the idea that extra things cost extra money. But as I'm newly investing in things such as camera hops and more wireless, how can I get an idea of what a good rate is for these 'extras' without stepping on some unwritten rules about posting these things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 This thread is a little old, but I'm bringing it back as I find it interesting and I might be embarking on some 'reality' situations shortly. Where I am located right now, it seems the the soundies in the area are charging flat rates, that is gear and labor into one bundle, so that is what I have grown accustomed too. I am familiar with the idea that extra things cost extra money. But as I'm newly investing in things such as camera hops and more wireless, how can I get an idea of what a good rate is for these 'extras' without stepping on some unwritten rules about posting these things? I'm pretty sure that you'll be told what the show will pay for for you and the required gear. Basically it's a take it or leave it situation. OTOH you get what you negotiate. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted February 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Hey guys, I just wanted to give you all an update. So things are going pretty good. We are using the lectro D4 and using the 4 tracks on the panasonic HDX900. Edirol 4 track recorder as back up. The post supervisor has set this all up. He bought the D4's for this show. He built all the crazy cables that we needed. One for my 442 that comes from the TA3 stereo and line 3 and 4 which then goes to the D4 then splits to the edirol. He also had to build a -30db padded cable for the 5pin input on the front of the camera. It's all working pretty good so far. We have had acouple issues with the D4's. But, the sound quality of the D4 is amazing. It's sounds just as good as a cable. Oh! and me the camera op got along great. Turned out not to be a big as dick as I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 It's all working pretty good so far. We have had acouple issues with the D4's. But, the sound quality of the D4 is amazing. It's sounds just as good as a cable. Hmmm, what were the issues? Power? Positioning? Transmission range? I'm very curious to hear how these work in the real world. how can I get an idea of what a good rate is for these 'extras' without stepping on some unwritten rules about posting these things? That's all part of making the deal. In two recent cases' date=' I dealt with a lowball bid by pointing out the compromises they would run into with sound at that rate. We went back and forth a little bit, and ultimately they leaned more in my favor and it worked out OK. (In one case, I found out I was being paid the same rate as the DP.) But I've also run into the same thing that Richard Ragon's talked about -- real bottom-feeders who have no clue what good sound is worth. I'd like to kill the morons who write those "Indie Films for Dummies" books who tell neophytes they can get sound crews with gear for $100 a day... [img']http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/rant.gif The other misconception are young filmmakers (particularly Red users) who think they can buy a $1200 recorder and a couple of mikes, and that's all they need. No respect for the archer -- they think it's all about the arrows. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTA Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 But I've also run into the same thing that Richard Ragon's talked about -- real bottom-feeders who have no clue what good sound is worth. I'd like to kill the morons who write those "Indie Films for Dummies" books who tell neophytes they can get sound crews with gear for $100 a day... The other misconception are young filmmakers (particularly Red users) who think they can buy a $1200 recorder and a couple of mikes, and that's all they need. No respect for the archer -- they think it's all about the arrows. --Marc W. I definitely run into this a lot, sometimes because of what you have described above, but also because some indie productions simply don't have the money. But, back to the first reason, I am really trying to stress the point that a good sound package often costs way more than the camera package, that lowering rates hurts all the other soundies in the area, and in the long run sets the rate lower for what local sound is going for. But then there is balancing that out with turning down work that you might not pick up, we have to pay the bills right? Sometimes, I feel like I pull my hair out trying to figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted February 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hmmm, what were the issues? Power? Positioning? Transmission range? I'm very curious to hear how these work in the real world. Hey Marc, No issues with range. As far as I have researched they have amazing range but I haven't tested this myself. One issue we have had is I have everything set up in my bag and camera. When I turn on the units the receiver will not receive any kind of signal no matter what I do. The only solution I have found is powering down the receiver for about 30 seconds then back on. It only happened to me twice. But this show is being shot in three different cities so there are three of these units and it has happened on the other units. We have been talking to Lectro about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 One issue we have had is I have everything set up in my bag and camera. When I turn on the units the receiver will not receive any kind of signal no matter what I do. The only solution I have found is powering down the receiver for about 30 seconds then back on. This definitely sounds like a software bug. I'm reminded of what an old friend of mine, a longtime video engineer always says: "it's a computer... expect less!" I assume once the D4 starts working, it stays working. I suspect this is some kind of reset/reboot issue that Lectro can solve. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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