XY or MS for SFX gathering only

[LSL]

Hello,

I'm going to be building my personal library of SFX and am looking for some guidance in terms of which gear to buy.

I've been considering a stereo shotgun: 191 (sensitive?, no bottom?), CSS-5(noisy?) and 418S (noisy?)

or

MS(more versatile) Senn or Schoeps : MKH 30/40 or Collette or CCM

I'm really want a quiet rig as it will be for capturing subtle BG's as well as hard effects( car bys etc)

*I've read thru the posts about MS and am a little concerned about the dolby encoding issue.  Does this only occur if the the tracks are delivered MS to the stage or can it happen even if you've committed them to L R ?

Thanks in advance,

Best,

John

[studiomprd]

" or MS (more versatile) "

the mic's you mention before the word 'or' are MS...

[Zack]

Why not gear for both XY and MS?  Nothing wrong with recording multiple images on the same source.  Personally I like MS the best, but also enjoy the ease of using ORTIF, XY, and spaced pair set-ups as well.  Since you did not mention a budget, I would start with Schoeps.

[LSL]

" or MS (more versatile) "

the mic's you mention before the word 'or' are MS...

Yes but they are single point as I'm sure you know and the CSS-5 is not MS. I suppose I should have been more clear single point or a card/fig 8 combo.

Why not gear for both XY and MS?  Nothing wrong with recording multiple images on the same source.  Personally I like MS the best, but also enjoy the ease of using ORTIF, XY, and spaced pair set-ups as well.  Since you did not mention a budget, I would start with Schoeps.

Fair enough I didn't mention a budget. : P

Lets say getting a couple CCM's would pretty much be my top end.

Any comment on the the MS dolby Matrix LTRT phase issue?

[JackHenry]

I use a Schoeps CCM4Lg & CCM8Lg in M/S or two CCM4Lg's in ORTF or a single Rode NT4 for X/Y. The Schoeps M/S is very light and easy to handle. I have the Schoeps Rycote 6" blimp, but for a recent overseas trip I modified a Rode Blimp (4" diameter) by shortening the rails, cage and fur so that it would fit in a backpack in the overhead locker.

The ORTF is a little bit more difficult in the outside world, but I have also seen a Rode Blimp modified for ORTF, although I think he was using a pair of DPA 4023's. (This is where I got the idea to shorten my Rode)

My Rode NT4 is a lot heavier than the other two set-ups. It fits nicely in a Rode Blimp and is a single microphone with X/Y heads so there is no set up problems.

Of the three, I prefer the M/S but the Rode is definitely the quieter microphone.

[JDirckze]

Nice rig!

http://acousticlight.net/blog/?page_id=1106

How do you find the Rode blimps Vs Rycote? Our mutual friend hasn't quite sold me on them, as there were reports of some parts failures.

[LSL]

Of the three, I prefer the M/S but the Rode is definitely the quieter microphone.

Hi Jack,

Wow your Rode rig looks great!

I am really surprised to hear the NT-4 is quieter than the schoeps MS setup.  Are you referring to self noise, handling or preamp hiss.

Do you use the Schoeps ORTF mount for doing ORTF or have you built you own?

Thanks,

John

[Zack]

I use a Schoeps CCM4Lg & CCM8Lg in M/S or two CCM4Lg's in ORTF or a single Rode NT4 for X/Y. The Schoeps M/S is very light and easy to handle. I have the Schoeps Rycote 6" blimp, but for a recent overseas trip I modified a Rode Blimp (4" diameter) by shortening the rails, cage and fur so that it would fit in a backpack in the overhead locker.

The ORTF is a little bit more difficult in the outside world, but I have also seen a Rode Blimp modified for ORTF, although I think he was using a pair of DPA 4023's. (This is where I got the idea to shorten my Rode)

My Rode NT4 is a lot heavier than the other two set-ups. It fits nicely in a Rode Blimp and is a single microphone with X/Y heads so there is no set up problems.

Of the three, I prefer the M/S but the Rode is definitely the quieter microphone.

Jack... what would you charge to do the same mod to one of my Rode Blimps?.. that is exactly what I'm wanting to do to mine, however I don't have the right tools to do it

[studiomprd]

" they are single point   "

actually, you mean they are single unit construction, that is built into a single unit.  the whole idea of MS is that the two separate diaphrams for the M mic and the S mic are as close to the same point in space as they can be, thus using separate microphones, they are mounted with the actual diaphrams closely together...

having the diaphrams as close as possible is also the basis for X-Y micing (I call it "cross firing cardioids"...

years ago, podium mics were mounted at the left and right corners of the podium, (A- not for stereo, but thinking that as the speaker made eye contact with the audience, they would always be "on mic"... oops, that didn't work, there were phase issues as the speakers head turned; now both mics (X-Y config, but still typically mono) are close together in the center of the podiums for the best frontal coverage without the comb-filtering / phase problems...Also, of course by using two separate mic's, you also may choose from amongst more options...

I think the only advantage to the dual mic MS would be the potential to physically separate the mic's for other uses, and the disadvantage of the uni-body MS mic's is the lack of capability to separate them. 

[Christian Holm]

Double MS... Looks interesting...

Anyone tried?!

”Double M/S is an improved version of the well-known M/S stereo recording technique. In addition to a frontfacing cardioid or supercardioid ”mid” microphone and a figure-8 ”side” microphone, a rear-facing directional microphone is set up. The front- and rear-facing microphones share the signal of the figure-8 microphone so as to form two complete, back-to-back M/S systems. One M/S system then provides the three front channels (the center channel signal being provided directly by the mid microphone of the front system), while the other system provides the two surround channels. An arrangement of this kind allows flexible processing of the stereo surround image width and post-production adjustment for both of the M/S pairs."

Also:

http://www.paudio.com/Pages/learning_Wittig.html

http://www.cinela.fr/catalog.php?pid=53

//Christian

[JackHenry]

Nice rig!

How do you find the Rode blimps Vs Rycote? Our mutual friend hasn't quite sold me on them, as there were reports of some parts failures.

Jason - The Rode blimp is great. The handle folds closer to the blimp than the Schoeps/Rycote handle does. I'm happy with it for what I do with it. The 'mesh' is a bit chunkier than the Rycote mesh. I'm not sure what can 'fail' on them? If you over tighten the small screws holding the handle together after inserting a cable tail, you could strip them, but I wouldn't class that as a fault. There was a 3 pin XLR tail already installed inside the handle, but I replaced it with a 5 pin for my NT4. (when I finally worked out how to get the handle apart) I would like to see Rode offer the threaded end 'rings' as a part (these are the rings on either end of the cage). It would make modification a lot easier, as the hardest part is getting the old cage out of the groove. Because I modified mine in my spare time over several days, I didn't photograph the process. It is reasonably straight forward. My only problem was staring at the blimp for about 10 minutes until I had the courage to plunge the scissors in. The entire exercise of modifying the blimp was based on a need to fit it comfortably into a backpack that could be carried onto a plane AND having a bit of space in it to put a camera. Using the Schoeps/Rycote blimp was just a bit to tight. Choosing a backpack is a whole other story.....

The blimp was holding my NT4 before I sliced & diced it for my overseas trip, so I do need to get another one. With the NT4 it is quite heavy. I was using it for either phonography or ambient stuff. I love going to the local wetland and getting the frogs. (you'll find examples on Acoustic Light). This was before I had a long chat with Greg and then spent a LOT of money on two CCM4Lg's & the CCM8Lg, Schoeps/Rycote blimp, 'Y' cable, ORTF bar etc. And the purchase was before I found out I was going overseas. I now wonder had I known of the trip, whether I would have got the 'Mono' 4" version of that blimp. The 6" sure does cut down noise though, and with the M/S CCM4/CCM8 combo it is sooooo light.

Wow your Rode rig looks great!

I am really surprised to hear the NT-4 is quieter than the schoeps MS setup.  Are you referring to self noise, handling or preamp hiss.

Do you use the Schoeps ORTF mount for doing ORTF or have you built you own?

John - Thanx for the comment. (and you Jason)

I do know that I can't hear the difference in the mics. I'm talking about the published specs on the two. While the CCM4 is quieter, the CCM8 is louder (according to the specs) Whether this makes a difference in the big picture, I can't comment.

I use the Schoeps ORTF bar. It makes it so easy to use and set-up, with no chance of screwing up the angle. Having said that, there is also no chance of 'tweaking' the angle slightly either. When recording orchestras, it looks so tiny on the end of 4 metre Manfrotto stand.

I truly love the Schoeps CCM's. I sometimes wonder (but probably mistakenly) whether I should have got the CMC series. It would have allowed for a greater choice in mic capsules down the track. But the weight factor of the CCM wins for me. Did I say I love the Schoeps CCM's

[JackHenry]

however I don't have the right tools to do it

You need a pair of scissors, packing knife (or scalpel) and some epoxy glue. For the rails you'll need a hacksaw, a drill and a tap (4 mm I think using a 3.2 mm drill) to thread the holes. Sending it here to Australia would be cost prohibitive. Schoeps do a 4" version that they class as 'mono' but the Rode is 4" so I'm guessing it would fit.

[minister]

The quietest mics are the Sennheiser RF mics, the 30/40 you mention.  You can record quiet ambiences w/o the need for NR in post.  They are not my favorite mics for capturing, but I like having them and they are reliable.

I also have a set of Schoeps cardioids for ORTF, NOS, Coincident etc. And a Figure-8 for MS.  I like the sound I get with the Schoeps better, but I am not selling my Senn's.

That said, MS is my least favorite sounding recording, but it can be the easiest in terms of kit on a stand or pistol grip.  I recorded motor boat sounds for a film using Schoeps MS and like having the rig be one hand-held Zeppelin.  I could crawl all over the boat, hang off the side, explore the motor etc. VERY easily.  I monitored AB as I encoded/decoded with the Sound Devices Pre and adjust the sides as I went for some great effects.  For ambiences, I prefer ORTF, XY (coincident 90º), or spaced Omni's as a sound.  I can ALWAYS hear the phase on the sides with MS. MS does give a stronger center (by as much as 6dB), so it is useful for many things, especially when you don't want wide.  But it still sounds funny to me.  Go to the Schoeps Showroom and flip through the patterns.  It is fun and enlightening.  The MS there is my least fav.

In terms of post : you will almost invariably have a problem with any downmix or pass through a Dolby Matrix with MS.  Solution is to commit to XY (or, 2 channel decoded, hard-printed) when you are ready.  You can MIX with the MS and play with the image if you want.  But when you are ready to commit to a pre-dub or final, print the MS to a stereo track.  I have done it with no problems and I have never wanted to go back and readjust the image, but you could if you plan your session right. I always leave the MS track in the session and then inactive and hide it once printed.

That's my tuppence.

Tom

[studiomprd]

this and another thread discuss MS stereo mnicing alternative

here's a review of one:

http://www.dv.com/article/92292