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Aes3 & aes42 function


ADJ
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Something I've never learnt which is almost embarrassing to ask at this point...

 

Aes3 and aes42 are often mentioned by others. I have an sd 833, previously a 633. Both of which have these functions. Also my mcr42 wisycoms have these as an output. 

 

I have zero knowledge on how and when is good to use these options. 
I know it's digital format. 
From online it sounds like it can add extra inputs through an xlr, or make a mic sound cleaner.

 

So my question is can you give me scenarios on when to use them and why.
For example would using my mkh50 through an xlr benefit from using aes? If so why?
Or would using the aes output of my wisycom going into the mixer benefit me? 

 

Many thanks in advance. 

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Hey there!

 

Okay so just to clarify AES3 is for using a digital signal without phantom power and AES42 is using a signal with phantom power.
Your MKH50 cannot be connected via AES

If you have a digital mic like the Schoeps SuperCMIT or some of the Neumann mics, then you can use AES42.

You're not explicitly adding extra inputs, one 3-pin XLR will accept two channels of AES audio, but those are usually converted to two channels on your recorder. But it is convenient to have fewer wires for more channels.

 

With your wisycoms I would definitely output that in AES and input it into your 833 as opposed to using mic or line. Whenever you output a signal analog it will have a minor distortion due to the gain of the preamp of the receiving device (even if you set it to +0db analog line on your 833 you will still have some anaolog conversion). Outputting into digital and receiving in digital means your signal is preserved and not being converted another time.

I use zaxcom and exclusively use AES inputs for my wireless, even with lectro SRc's and wisycom you should be using AES to reduce analog conversion presence. To me there isn't a reason not to use AES if the mixer can accept it.

 

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Been using AES3 and 42 every day on the 833. AES3 for Sennheiser EK6042 receiver(s) and AES42 for the Neumann KM-D microphone with supercardioid capsule.

 

As SCI mentioned, connecting the receiver via AES3 always sounds so much better, even when both receiver's analogue output stage and mixer's analogue input stage are great quality.

 

When mixing analogue and digital sources you have to be aware of latencies. In most cases, analogue is "faster" (esp. hardwire connected analogue mikes), but sometimes vice versa (e.g. when there's DA-conversion taking place in the receiver). I always look up the specs.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sciproductions said:

Even with lectro SRc's and wisycom you should be using AES to reduce analog conversion presence. To me there isn't a reason not to use AES if the mixer can accept it.

 

The SRc and the Wisy units output analog from the receivers, so there is an A/D step either in the receiver bottom plate (if using an AES output bottom plate) or in the mixer input, so a conversion step will happen either way. This is of course different for receivers with direct digital outputs like the Lectro 822 or DSR4, Zax, Audio LTD, etc. 

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4 minutes ago, karlw said:

The SRc and the Wisy units output analog from the receivers, so there is an A/D step either in the receiver bottom plate (if using an AES output bottom plate) or in the mixer input, so a conversion step will happen either way. This is of course different for receivers with direct digital outputs like the Lectro 822 or DSR4, Zax, Audio LTD, etc. 

 

So in other words it makes no really difference, especially if your cable

runs are. 
What I‘m wondering is this:

all recorders with digital inputs utilise sample rate conversion on their input, mostly, I believe, to overcome clocking issues between digital devices that run on their own clocks and can’t be synchronised. 
Sample rate conversion can affect the signal, too, albeit probably barely perceivable, if at all. I’m guessing that today sample rate conversion doesn’t happen anymore by first converting the signal to analog and the sampling it again, because that would definitely distort the signal to a degree. if that were the case, it‘d be probably better to go line-in to the recorder. Otherwise SRC shouldn’t really do much to the signal. 
But likewise going from an analog receiver to a line-in of a digital recorder. That will barely  affect the signal. So my personal view is that it doesn’t make much difference in real life and with short cables

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Thanks for all the thorough responses explaining that through. Really informative. 

 

Two questions I have from that now:

 

Am I correct in thinking I only need to enable the wisy aes output or 833 aes input to achieve digital results. There's no reason to use both at the same time in the chain?

 

Regarding latency - say I find how much delay I need to apply between my mkh50 and wisy setup. Will it always be the same amount for this  setup or will it fluctuate on different days? 

I'd be concerned if I was on a run and gun project and didn't have time to sort it. 

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ADJ, if you enable AES outputs on your receiver, then you would need to connect those to an AES input on your 833. Or, analog outputs from your receiver into analog inputs on the 833, which then are converted to digital inside the unit. This latter signal chain involves only one conversion. The AES out from receiver is one conversion (inside the receiver) then into an AES input (resampling) on the mixer. It is still only one conversion to digital, but re-sampled. I would challenge anyone to hear the difference but it might be possible in some circumstances. The question then becomes a practical one: if you are short on analog inputs on your 833, then connecting your receiver to the mixer via AES frees up two analog inputs. 

 

Regarding latency: if you are mixing lav and boom to one channel, you will get phasing due to the difference of acoustic delay (boom further away) between the two channels. It will vary depending on the difference of distance. The electronic latency won't change unless you change the way the units are connected (re-sampling does introduce a small amount of delay, usually well under 1 ms). 

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9 hours ago, ADJ said:

Am I correct in thinking I only need to enable the wisy aes output or 833 aes input to achieve digital results. There's no reason to use both at the same time in the chain?

 

Regarding latency - say I find how much delay I need to apply between my mkh50 and wisy setup. 

 

You'll never get AES out of your MKH50, not unless you're passing it through an Analogue to Digital converter (or it is wireless, with a receiver that has a digital output).

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On 9/27/2022 at 1:01 AM, karlw said:

The SRc and the Wisy units output analog from the receivers, so there is an A/D step either in the receiver bottom plate (if using an AES output bottom plate) or in the mixer input, so a conversion step will happen either way. This is of course different for receivers with direct digital outputs like the Lectro 822 or DSR4, Zax, Audio LTD, etc. 

Sorry Karl, my mistake, I meant for the Lectrosonics digital receivers.

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On 9/27/2022 at 9:24 PM, karlw said:

I would challenge anyone to hear the difference but it might be possible in some circumstances

Totally agree. I also think that it’s unlikely anyone could hear the difference between going from an analog or digital hybrid receiver via line in to the recorder or going digital from those same receivers. So like you said, with those receivers it’s more a practical choice rather than a sonic choice

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