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Shotgun mic for non-dialog recommendation needed


Aragorn

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Hello. I'm a live sound engineer so far, not a film sound mixer (yet). I need to use two shotgun mics in a ORTF pattern at mixing booth to pick room sound while the band plays via FOH PA. The goal is to hear as close as possible to what a human hears in the room. This is needed for remote FOH mixing. 

 

I've experimented with a MKH416 (only one for now, since I own one) pointing at a FOH speaker from mixing position and it works quite well. But the church is on a budget and can't afford two such mics. A dynamic SM57 worked too, but it's much less detailed and rolls off too early at lows and highs. An omni dbx mic was the worst (too much reverberation).

 

Can you recommend a budget shotgun with as much off-axis rejection as possible, preferably within $200 per mic? Extended low frequency response is much preferred. No battery operation needed, no RF-bias necessary because it'll be in controlled humidity. Low self noise isn't so important.

 

I'm considering a Rode NTG1 ($190, 20Hz-20kHz) but looks like it's pickup pattern isn't as tight... Audio Technica AT875R ($150) seems to have a tight pickup but it's only 90-20,000Hz... 

 

Thanks!

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If i may ask... So the FOH mixer will listen to the mix on headphones, right? Or on loudspeakers? If on headphones, i'd wonder wether a pair of omnis with somekind of separation (Absorption) in the middle wouldn't work better, especially for the Bass response. And if i were to mix a show remotely on a known speaker system with a known response, i'd rather get a mix straight out of the console as a main reference. Plus somekind of SPL indication. Since our brain hugely takes our environment that we're in into account, i'm not that sure it would even work that well with just using mics. Mics can't differentiate between direct and diffuse sound, but our ears do. 

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If recording  a live music performance, I  get a FOH console mix feed and a stereo room mics and mix the two stereo pairs together in post. The console mix provides the presence and the room mics give it the 'live room' sound, closer to what human ears hear.
The 'house' mix is dependent on the FOH mixer and it may be vocal heavy, so having a separate mix or stems from aux sends or a matrix is a good idea.  Many of the digital consoles can record a multi-track ISOs to a USB stick which is even better, but requires more post time and music recording/mixing skills.

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14 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

If recording  a live music performance

He's actually talking about using the system for remote FOH mixing. But yeah, i'd vouch for a mix between console feed+room mics in this application as well. Or a selectable number of streams via matrices.

Then again, remote FOH mixing might just be a bad idea :')

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On 10/2/2022 at 7:38 AM, Tinu said:

So the FOH mixer will listen to the mix on headphones, right? Or on loudspeakers?

Yes, in headphones. I compared an SM57 vs MKH416 vs MKH50 vs dBx calibration Omni at mixer location pointing one speaker and MKH416 and SM57 picked up the least of reflections, with MKH416 picking more highs and lows (which is better) vs SM57 but the venue can't afford two such expensive mics, therefore I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. Dynamic mics with extended frequency response are also expensive from what I can tell. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, I did realize that just two mics at mixer position will not do the job and I need a mix of different mics at different locations and probably either main out or a matrix mix as well. But still, that makes my original question valid: need affordable shotgun mics with polar pattern compatible with MKH416 and preferably as extended lower end. 

 

I'm thinking of hanging a SM57 closer to one speaker (in addition to stereo shotguns at booth), making it pseudo stereo during monitoring, and mixing it with shotgun mics. Why one? Because the room layout is so unfortunate that drums and percussion are right by another speaker so that other mic will pick nothing but drums...

 

This is a very bad room in acoustic sense, horrible layout with many life instruments (mostly drums) acoustically bleeding, therefore I must rely on mics as much as possible because mixer outputs may sound very deceiving. 

 

Are there shotgun mics within around $200 that may do what I need or is this an unrealistic wish? 

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14 minutes ago, Aragorn said:

need affordable shotgun mics with polar pattern compatible with MKH416 and preferably as extended lower end. 

 

Without having knowledge about how they sound or what their measurements are:

- Deity mics in general, they're very affordable and have shotgun options

- Behringer?... 

- Rode NTG4+

- Sennheiser MKE600

- AudioTechnica897

 

No further ideas.. Plus, make sure to compensate for latency from the PA to mix Position!

 

But it's a really interesting idea after all. What platform/desk does your mixer use for this?

 

 

 

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Thank you all for your replies! Of course I'd time align the feeds.

 

2 hours ago, Tinu said:

- Deity mics in general, they're very affordable and have shotgun options

- Behringer?... 

- Rode NTG4+

- Sennheiser MKE600

- AudioTechnica897

 

I tried to research some of these and it seems like they are all less directional than MKH416, please correct me if I am wrong! So I don't know if that would be critical in my situation, because super-to-hypercardioid MKH50 already picks up slightly more room! Also, some of these cheap mics's frequency response starts higher and I don't know if boosting bottom end on EQ would work. What do you think? 

 

2 hours ago, Tinu said:

But it's a really interesting idea after all. What platform/desk does your mixer use for this?

 

Presonus StudioLive Series iii. I'll have to create 2 independent mixes, one for FOH, another for streaming (plus all Auxes for musicians), and control both from a remote location. It is a very complicated setup. So having a good room monitoring is critical. I know it's a questionable goal but I get a feeling that this can be done.

 

2 hours ago, Conor said:

The Sony mics do ok, we have a bunch we use for cheap camera scratch mics. But even the ECM-674 I was going to recommend is above $200

Maybe I could pick a pair used for less money... Is ECM-674's pickup pattern compatible with MKH416 ? Tighter than those mentioned in my previous quote? 

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Not a joke: you might find a pair of very old t powered MKH805s or even 815s which are more directional than the 416 for that money or even less; but beware, when they stop working they cannot be serviced by sennheiser any more.

 

(And Daniel, my dear friend, no t-jokes from you either please!!)

 

Jez

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I've mixed FOH on, and set up for others, such remote monitoring systems quite a few times in the past. Anything from mixing Theatre shows in a booth with a fixed glass window, to someone mixing half way around the world. Firstly - I think you are on the right track with hypercardioid or tighter mics. I've dealt with systems that used a Neumann dummy head or similar binaural rig, or spaced Omnis, and I don't find they translate at all well for this particular FOH mixing task. Co-incident crossed shotguns can also sound a bit odd in headphones, particularly in the ambience or 'room' component of the sound - due to the often 'ragged' frequency response on the side patterns of each mic. The mic I preferred (driving headphones) was a Sanken CSS5 stereo shotgun. While the CSS-5 was not strictly speaking a MS mic (mid-side stereo technique - lots of info on line if unfamiliar) - there are quite a few MS stereo shotguns available for on-camera use in a lower price range that might be worth considering. Audio Technica and Sony have some in the sub-$1000 range that might be available used for much less. Of course if you actually own the single 416 you tried out - you could use it as the 'mid' mic and just add a figure-8 mic as the "side" capsule. Ambient in Germany make a little "emesser" clip-on figure-8 capsule for this that should be available through places like Gotham Sound in NYC - or any multi-pattern mic with a fig-8 setting. If you do the MS to LR Stereo conversion on three channels on your console, you can listen to some music in the room then adjust the stereo image and more importantly the volume in the headphones to match as closely as possible and lock it off. For what you are doing ("remoting your ears" into a venue for mixing FOH PA) you do NOT want to be micing from multiple positions or mixing in dry console sound from the actual performance mics. If you are switching between monitoring the house PA, and monitoring a streaming mix or PFL'ing individual channels, you need to come up with a scheme that allows a fixed reference level to your headphones for the room mics independent of the other sources.

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8 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Not a joke: you might find a pair of very old t powered MKH805s or even 815s which are more directional than the 416 for that money or even less; but beware, when they stop working they cannot be serviced by sennheiser any more.

 

(And Daniel, my dear friend, no t-jokes from you either please!!)

 

Jez

You know the funny thing is when i saw the thread i thought - how much is a (used) T powered 415/416 etc and started looking on ebay. lol. Seems like all your Tonader advocacy has pushed the prices up. Not to mention power supplies and xlr-tuchel connectors. 

 

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"The goal is to hear as close as possible to what a human hears in the room"

If this is the goal, I would not use any shotgun, they does not simulate how our ear works at all. How we hear has a lot to do with Psychoacoustic (i.e. head related transfer function) and visual informations (which influence a lot of our acoustical focus)

 

I would not use any Shotgun in this case, they will colorise the sound, especially in a church where there's strong reflection from every directions. 

Try with Omni (or boundary microphones) , with EQ and Delay compensation, mixing together with direct signals, it will get you much closer to the result compare to two shotguns. You can DIY some Boundary microphones with cheap Lavs even under $100/piece. 

There are also some 3D Models for 3D Printed Binaural Mic, using Lavalier Microphones. 

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22 hours ago, nickreich said:

Co-incident crossed shotguns can also sound a bit odd in headphones, particularly in the ambience or 'room' component of the sound - due to the often 'ragged' frequency response on the side patterns of each mic.

The funny thing is in that room 110 degrees ORTF mics point exactly at FOH speakers. That's why I think that anything omni or figure 8 is not the right fit for the room. Even MKH50 which is closer to hypercardioid did slightly worse that SM57 and MKH416 .

 

11 hours ago, Tong0615 said:

I would not use any Shotgun in this case, they will colorise the sound, especially in a church where there's strong reflection from every directions. 

Try with Omni (or boundary microphones) , with EQ and Delay compensation, mixing together with direct signals, it will get you much closer to the result compare to two shotguns.

As I mentioned in the first post, I did try a dbx RTA-M omni mic. It was the worst in the sense that it picked up more reverberation. 

 

22 hours ago, nickreich said:

If you are switching between monitoring the house PA, and monitoring a streaming mix or PFL'ing individual channels, you need to come up with a scheme that allows a fixed reference level to your headphones for the room mics independent of the other sources.

Yes, that part I figured out earlier in the process. Thanks! 

 

On 10/3/2022 at 7:14 PM, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Not a joke: you might find a pair of very old t powered MKH805s or even 815s which are more directional than the 416 for that money or even less; but beware, when they stop working they cannot be serviced by sennheiser any more.

Thanks for the idea! But I think buying such old stuff won't get approval from that church. 

 

22 hours ago, nickreich said:

Of course if you actually own the single 416 you tried out - you could use it as the 'mid' mic and just add a figure-8 mic as the "side" capsule.

 

This is for permanent installation and they won't afford that mic from me. I've been pushing them to upgrade things, was able to convince to upgrade many key components, but it seems like I'm reaching the end of my abilities to encourage then spending more... Especially on mics that only I will listen to :)... And you see, I keep building this streaming system but it hasn't launched yet, so asking for much more money for it is shady right now..

 

It's interesting to hear opposing opinions on mic pattern choices and one vs multiple mic positions, as well as the need of feeding in main/matrix... I guess I'll have to experiment but not sure how to get cheaper mics to try aside from starting Amazon return rampage... 

 

I didn't have a chance to mix trial samples that I've recorded with those mics. But from monitoring in headphones I can tell that SM57 and MKH416 picked EXACTLY same amount of reverberation, but 416 sounded more detailed with open top and bottom while SM57 sounded more dull, slightly muffled. 416 should handle EQ much better. I've also briefly tried a BETA58 and there isn't much difference between cardioid SM57 and hypercardioid BETA58, I guess that's because reverberation rejection in dynamic mics is achieved by their lower sensitivity to details and slower response, instead of pickup pattern.

 

Therefore it's tempting to just buy cheap dynamics... Do you think the dynamic HEIL PR 20 (50-18kHz, $100) may be closer to MKH416 ? So the choice is between a $100 dynamic (good rejection but dull sounding) and $200-250 shotgun with questionable rejection. The problem is that I don't know how critical pickup pattern will be in cheaper shotgun mics! 

 

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I did a thorough mixing test with abovementioned mics. The cheapest Behringer C2 were actually not so bad in terms of picking the least reverberation. However they severely lacked low end. EQ doesn't really help because the frequency information isn't really there. C2 are cardioid.

On the other hand MKH50 picked low end the best. Also MKH50 is supercardioid.

 

So I need to get mics with somewhat similar pickup pattern and frequency response to MKH50 but much more affordable. Can you please recommend affordable pair of supercardioid SDCs within $300 with good low end representation?

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21 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

If you can find a pre-owned Audio Technica 4073 short shotgun (discontinued), It  has a warm sounding low-end bass response and sizzling highs.

Thanks, but I apologize for not being clear: I've changed my original search goal from shotgun mics to affordable small diaphragm condensers because SDCs sound fine in my tests, plus they are more affordable, as long as low end frequency response is good. Not sure if I need supercardioid or cardioid is fine though.

 

I'm considering a pair of sE7 ($220) as someone said they have a decently detailed low end. Can someone confirm that or recommend something better?

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I have a couple Line Audio CM4 cardioids. I've mainly been using them to record music in various configurations. Rather flat. Small! Overall, seem pretty nice, especially for the price. Discussions here and on gearspace influenced my decision. I'll link to a couple of those below. Looks like $125US or so right now. 

 

Line Audio page:

(they don't/didn't sell direct)

http://www.lineaudio.se/CM4.html

 

A/the main dealer in Belgium: 

(but they ship to the US, and rather quickly)

http://nohypeaudio.com/lineaudioproducts.htm

 

A discussion here from a few years ago

(Note @Olle Sjostrom's mention of using CM3s for crowd recording).

Line Audio CM4 for location sound

https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/34441-line-audio-cm4-for-location-sound/

 

And a typically really long multi-year discussion on gearspace:

CM4 Is Here. Let's start a thread for it and let the CM3 go on

https://gearspace.com/board/mobile-amp-location-rigs/1268518-cm4-here-lets-start-thread-let-cm3-go.html

 

No idea if they'll do what you want. But hopefully the above links will help you figure that out.

 

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  • 2 months later...

This reply is quite late to an old post.

 

The MKH416 is not suitable, it has a "bump" in the upper frequency range which boosts those frequencies. There is a flat frequency response version, it is the MKH416T-F which does not have the "bump". I have a matched pair of the F version with virtually ruler flat frequency response. The MKH416T-F faithfully reproduces the audio source and has the same off-axis rejection of the standard MKH416.

MKH416T-F Microphone Actual Frequency Response Chart.jpg

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