To tri-level or not to tri-level...that is the question.

[Marc Wielage]

As much as I can tell until the SBT Deneke did not quite have a comparable device, correct me if I am wrong.

But I think the Denecke SB-T has been available for five or six years now -- longer than the Red has been in existence.

If you want to borrow one for a few days to test it out with the Red, call me and I'll check my schedule. I've used both, and believe me, the Denecke is more straightforward (to my way of thinking).

And you really should check to see if Red can rewrite their manual to make it absolutely clear that users must use tri-level sync when jamming timecode, but that is not clear in any of the manuals written to date. (I know of a recent 3D horror project where the crew did not use tri-level sync, and it was a near-disaster that cost much time and money in post.)

--Marc W.

[Charlie Parra]

But I think the Denecke SB-T has been available for five or six years now -- longer than the Red has been in existence.

The SB-T was released in January of 2003.

If you want to borrow one for a few days to test it out with the Red, call me and I'll check my schedule.

Denecke will also be happy to send out a loaner for testing and will gladly answer any questions that you (or RED) may have.

And you really should check to see if Red can rewrite their manual to make it absolutely clear that users must use tri-level sync when jamming timecode, but that is not clear in any of the manuals written to date. (I know of a recent 3D horror project where the crew did not use tri-level sync, and it was a near-disaster that cost much time and money in post.)

I contacted RED (a few years ago) about including the SB-T in their manual and even sent them a short write up on the settings. I was told it would be added, but unfortunately it has not. FWIW the SB-T settings for the RED and other cameras can be found here.

http://www.denecke.com/Support/Downloads/Documents/SBT%20Overview.pdf

Best Regards,

Charlie

[Philip Perkins]

The SB-T was released in January of 2003.

Denecke will also be happy to send out a loaner for testing and will gladly answer any questions that you (or RED) may have.

I contacted RED (a few years ago) about including the SB-T in their manual and even sent them a short write up on the settings. I was told it would be added, but unfortunately it has not. FWIW the SB-T settings for the RED and other cameras can be found here.

http://www.denecke.com/Support/Downloads/Documents/SBT%20Overview.pdf

Best Regards,

Charlie

FWIW, I have used an SBT feeding various RED cameras TC and sync many times with success.  However, if the job only requires the RED and audio to be in sync for under 10 min takes, I still believe that the safest and simplest method is to NOT have the camera take ext sync, and have it jam to external TC (from the SBT etc) each time it rolls.  The camera TC may not be EXACTLY accurate, but if we used a slate I have had no complaints at all about sync when working this way.  (We do send audio to the camera as well, most of the time.)

Philip Perkins

[chrisnewton]

This a very useful thread.  I've done a few RED shoots now, so far none have used a sync box (production's decision), so I have no experience either way (Tri-level yes/no). I hope I'm not getting off topic too far, but what have been experiences with the headphone out as a return? In my experience, it's been poor: always on the edge of distortion (into 442 return anyway). Very nerve wracking. I've so far always gone double system with a good quality 2 track send to camera or a scratch track via G2. No complaints from post so far. Is the 5 pin line out any better? Chris Newton

[soundtrane]

Brian, Robert - all water down the river with possible amble miscommunication etc., and you are both professionals. Brian - please continue to post here, I am sure no one has taken any offence. If anyone differs, he may write here as to why.

-vin

[soundtrane]

Apropos recording to camera - I am not a willing proponent of this method. Even if the camera records audio well etc., and even if Oleg has lots to say about this.

I would - as a mixer - want to record on my own device - not because i own it but because i trust it.

I have done two projects on a RED (one feature last year and one documentary recently - still on it) and one on Canon cameras (5D, 7D). The only thing i did was to send audio wireless to the camera - as a REFERENCE audio and in one instance, since they were NOT recording video assist, i HAD to send audio to camera. Or else there would be no audio in playback of a recent take.

I even sent reference audio to the Canon 5d/7d. But only reference audio.

The real stuff is on my Cantar - duly transferred with full metadata and provided to the production in hard drive and DVD-R whenever requested.

As far as timecode is concerned - in these cases - use a dumb slate - and be happy. the happiness spreads into post as well.

-vin

[studiomprd]

" make it absolutely clear that users must use tri-level sync when jamming timecode, "

I believe this 'fact' is still in doubt!

'jamming' means taking in the TC to set the internal clock, then running from the internal clock.  some devices specify 'continuous jam' or ext TC modes, and in those cases the internal clock is actually controlled by the external TC source.  

" I contacted RED (a few years ago) about including the SB-T in their manual and even sent them a short write up on the settings. I was told it would be added, but unfortunately it has not.  " a consultant, on retainer, who frequents production sound forums could earn that retainer by getting this corrected ASAP!

" not because i own it but because i trust it. "

not because i own it but because I operate it and trust it.

[studiomprd]

" I explain to them that the quality of the sound devices recorder audio will be of a higher quality "

of course way too many folks using this camcorder system do a lot of other stuff that compromises the quality of any (or all)  production audio, often rendering this a moot point!