recording near the ocean

[YCapus]

I posted this topic on the ramps, but i'm not really satified about the answers

friendly answers but not very accurate.

So i post this question here :

There are few weeks ago i was started the first location

recording for a documentary film, the location is a wide beach along

Atlantic..and i did some itw and wild sound. In 4 weeks the second

shooting part will begin .

All things was well with 3 wireless Lectro and my preferate well mic

mkh50 for booming. Recorder is a nagra6 i do record some iso tracks and

send a mix to the cam via hf.

My question is: how can i improve the s/n ( dialog/sea-noise) ?

The actual s/n is around 30db(+-10db) , i allways pay attention to put

the boom at reverse side from the ocean , but for some lighting

question this is not allways possible.. Of course i don't want to fight

against Atlantic .. consequently i think about two ways for improve my

work, first is to use a more directionnal microphone than the mkh50 ,

but that expose me to improve the wind noise and some difficults for

match the backgound noise..the second is to use an omnidirectionnal  as

a boom mic, assuming to be close from the caracters (this is often

possible)  by this way i will got a closely voices by wireless, a

natural and sometimes closely voices too by the boom, a relative imm

unity from the wind, with a tune background noise...

That should be glad if could tell me your advices or experiences

about this kind of location. Wich choice should be yours ?

Thank you for your attention

Y.Capus

in attachment a photo from the set..

[studiomprd]

" use an omni-directional  as a boom mic,"

NOPE!!

7 season on Baywatch (aka "Alert au' Malibu"), doing 2nd unit, we were the ones running up and down the beach, doing water work, on all sorts of watercraft, etc. I never even heard of such a thing!!

my usual was a well blimped (Rycote with fur) 816;  the ocean sound is constantly changing, but a part of the movie, so it was always smoothed out in post

BTW, we rarely used wireless Lav's for obvious reasons!

[curleysound]

When Lavaliere mics can be used, you can use a lavaliere with a tighter pickup pattern, such as a TRAM TR-50 or a Cardioid lavaliere, which could cause as many problems as it solves. Otherwise, I agree with the previous post completely. Also, anything you can do to put either distance, or solid objects between the mic and the ocean will help. If a camera is on a telephoto lens, you can have your talent far away from the water, and appear that they are right next to it. If the person faces away from the ocean, their lavaliere will be somewhat shielded from the ocean noise, and thusly, if they are facing the ocean, it will be worse. That is when your directional boom mic will be facing away from the water as well. Keep in mind that having the shotgun boom mic as vertical as possible will reject the most noise from the ocean because they do let some sound in from the back of the mic. Sometimes, probably rarely, booming from below can also get rid of a lot of ocean noise, and cause less shadows on a sunny beach, but this is also fraught with problems as well.

Hope this helps!

PS Welcome to the message board! Where are you from?

[David Waelder]

That should be glad if could tell me your advices or experiences

about this kind of location.

I would also favor using a very directional microphone, either a shotgun (MKH 70, MKH 815, KMR 82) or a short shotgun. Generally, I try to use the shortest instrument I can get away with but use the bigger ones when I have to. So, for close-ups, the 416, the 60, or the KMR 81.

Sometimes one can get excellent results by hiding the mike behind a sand berm or in a hole dug in the sand and pointing it up at the players. By isolating the mike from any sound coming in from the side, one can focus on the voice. When this works, it works great. But I almost hesitate to mention it because there are so few opportunities to take advantage.

Much of the time one must be content to record intelligible dialog with considerable wave noise in the background.

Sometimes the director or DP can be persuaded to move the scene farther from the water for the close-ups. The background scenery is usually much the same 50 or 100 feet further inland and the change can help considerably with wave noise.

David Waelder

[studiomprd]

"  Cardioid lavaliere, which could cause as many problems as it solves. "

not really a good idea, as they are usually larger, and always more sensitive to wind noises, contact and cable noises, and head turning...

[YCapus]

Very interesting thank you all . I'm from Paris-France.

@Studiomprd : don't scream please..i'm searching..my previous way is a good way and everything is ok just i tried to improve this..off cpourse with "Baywatch" your experience is noticiable .. but i'm working with non professional talents, it is a documentary, i have no time for changing mic i have no assistant , no dresser ( may be you had no dresser too..) etc, ihave in charge 2 cameras and curently 3 people speaking without any rehearsal, this is a little bit different , off course i booming myself so the 416 and 816 are too heavy all day long...that one of the reason i made the mkh50 like choice.

@Curleysound

You are absolutly right i agree with your experience , what you said about hf and mic placement is exactly what i do on the set, i desagree about the vertical shotgun position for many reasons, the first is the echoing coming from the floor (the beach) and often generate some disgracious alterations, the second is i need to recording a little bit more wide than the

mooth talent..i need to keep the people in their environment, with best taste as possible..(omni ?)..

@davidwae

I cannot hide any mike cause we are moving a lot...i keep in mind the good idea to create

an isoltion on the side between mic and sea , prhaps with someone...sometimes...just i keep this idea in my mind..

@all i agree with you about the HF which could cause as many problems as it solves.

Fortunatly my people are well weared and i can realise a good isolation, and that help me to keep a high voice average level. More i record this HF on iso tracks and they are only a support for boom not the main sound source. ( and the director is a little bit lost without...)

Thank you all.

[studiomprd]

"  about the HF which could cause as many problems as it solves. "

I was referring to cardioid lav mic's, as they are problematic; they are only good for PA (live sound systems), and even then, not really so good!!

the situation which you describe your shooting is difficult.  When it was conceived and the decision taken to shoot that way, then the reality of poor sound was set;

movie making is a lot of problem solving, but it sounds like you are alone trying to solve the sound problems,  you will do your best, in difficult conditions, and your movie makers will get the results of the decision they have taken! 

[YCapus]

About Cardio lav mic , you are right.

Off course my situation is difficult ..and you know..this is an usual situation ..

Fortunatly i'm very close from the director and many times we can prepare (not rehearsal) the shooting with a lot of sharing, this is a nice person with a lot of talent , this is not the first movie we make together and this is maybe my 30th documentary movie, my first one was with a Nagra2 and km84 in a mine field...so i think to have a good knowledge about my work and my limits too.. i cannot tell "movie makers will get the results of the decision they have taken" as usual sentence cause we take the decisions together with the DP too... Just i'm searching for some details about the best recording way and your answers are very helpfull.

[berniebeaudry]

Very interesting thank you all . I'm from Paris-France.

@Studiomprd : don't scream please..i'm searching..my previous way is a good way and everything is ok just i tried to improve this..off cpourse with "Baywatch" your experience is noticiable .. but i'm working with non professional talents, it is a documentary, i have no time for changing mic i have no assistant , no dresser ( may be you had no dresser too..) etc, ihave in charge 2 cameras and curently 3 people speaking without any rehearsal, this is a little bit different , off course i booming myself so the 416 and 816 are too heavy all day long...that one of the reason i made the mkh50 like choice.

@Curleysound

You are absolutly right i agree with your experience , what you said about hf and mic placement is exactly what i do on the set, i desagree about the vertical shotgun position for many reasons, the first is the echoing coming from the floor (the beach) and often generate some disgracious alterations, the second is i need to recording a little bit more wide than the

mooth talent..i need to keep the people in their environment, with best taste as possible..(omni ?)..

@davidwae

I cannot hide any mike cause we are moving a lot...i keep in mind the good idea to create

an isoltion on the side between mic and sea , prhaps with someone...sometimes...just i keep this idea in my mind..

@all i agree with you about the HF which could cause as many problems as it solves.

Fortunatly my people are well weared and i can realise a good isolation, and that help me to keep a high voice average level. More i record this HF on iso tracks and they are only a support for boom not the main sound source. ( and the director is a little bit lost without...)

Thank you all.

It sounds like you need to be a bit wider to show the beautiful location, but your MKH50 doesn't have the perceived reach to get the dialogue as far above the ocean noise as you would like.  A longer shotgun like the 816, or MKH 70, or Neuman 82 would help that, but as you said its a lot of weight for a long shoot.  Give this a try.  Make a boom support out of a monopod.  Rig a padded v on the top of the monopod to rest the pole in.  You'll be able to hold the pole in position all day long because your arms won't be over your head and the monopod transfers all the weight to the ground.  You can still move with this setup, and actually keep your mic position more stable moving or stationary.  You simply keep one hand on the end of the pole for counter balance and the other hand is on the monopod keeping it steady in an upright position. 

To move just lift up on the monopod and go.  There are other more sophisticated (expensive) systems available but I've used this method often and it works well.  I'm not a very tall person so it really helps me.  I've even done it from a ladder.  Boomed a roundtable discussion for two hour straight from on top of a ladder.  Hope this helps.

Bernie

[Marco Lopez]

I would use microphones able to "handle" the noise. Lavaliers like Voice Tecnologies VT 500 or Sonotrims could work on spots like the one you describe. I recently got the VT and tried them in a commercial where the set was not a sound stage at all!! Reflections everywhere and a very bad sound isolation. It was next to an avenue and you could clearly hear the cars passing by. So I used my newly purchased VT and I could barely hear the traffic. As for boom an MKH 70 could work for you. For what I've read you could try the Sanken CS3e but you need to handle it correctly. The truth is that I've never had the chance to try the sonotrims and the sanken, my experience is based only from what I've learned from here. But you can rely on my opinion about the VT's and MKH 70.

Best regards,

Marco

[YCapus]

@Marco Lopez

Nice.. The wireless mic working great ( 3 Sennheiser mke 2) fitted with undercover and hide by people clothes.

@BernieBaudry

A monoploe for support the boom is a good idea but difficult to fit on location so i did some think around this idea and i will try this : http://www.boomaudiovideo.com/produits/categorie-supports-de-perches/-kit-cool-3117/

Sometimes that can help me, for instance the next shooting will be on very little fishing boat.....that's will be tough and i like it !

[Marc Wielage]

I was always impressed with what the crews on Lost could do (often shooting in Oahu's north shore). This was some of the best dailies sound I've ever heard, at least in a difficult location, and I can tell you a lot of the production sound wound up in the finished show -- albeit with some NR and careful editing. To me, it was a miracle it sounded that good.

I think they used a combination of very-directional shotguns (maybe 816's or 70's), a lot of wireless, careful planning, and strategic blocking and coverage. Absolutely first-class work, week after week. (Well, at least on the shows we worked on in post for seasons 1-4.)

--Marc W.

[Marco Lopez]

I was always impressed with what the crews on Lost could do (often shooting in Oahu's north shore). This was some of the best dailies sound I've ever heard, at least in a difficult location, and I can tell you a lot of the production sound wound up in the finished show -- albeit with some NR and careful editing. To me, it was a miracle it sounded that good.

I think they used a combination of very-directional shotguns (maybe 816's or 70's), a lot of wireless, careful planning, and strategic blocking and coverage. Absolutely first-class work, week after week. (Well, at least on the shows we worked on in post for seasons 1-4.)

--Marc W.

Marc you're absolutely right. It's a very tough location with a lot of wide shots and especially the scenes located next to the sea with the actors facing the ocean, knocked me out. I thought that it was ADRed. Very good job.

Best regards,

Marco 

[greg sextro]

I worked on a film that shot on the beach.  My boom op and I tested out both a kmr 82 and a Sanken cs3e the day before we shot.  We stuck with the Sanken.  A lot of the time, we boomed from below, or as much as possible, with the rear of the mic facing directly at the ocean.  I would have liked to try a 816, but did not have one at my disposal.

I used cos-11s for lavs, but they rarely made it into the final mix. 

The saving grace for us, was wild lines.  Whenever needed.  Fortunately, the director and producer were open to the idea and the actors did a pretty decent job with it.

-Greg-

[Jon Gilbert]

I worked on a surfing doc last summer and the Sanken CS3e saved my life, I had Cos11s and lectros waterproofed on the surfers to give a sense of being in the water with them, but all the dialogue was recorded with the CS3e, both on the beach, and with me in the water with them, with a long pole, a radio tx on the boom and the recorder stashed in a peli case on the water line.

Without the CS3e my life would have been a lot harder on that shoot, it's the perfect tool for the job.

[YCapus]

A lot of interesting things , many people vote for the Sanken cs3e, curiously this mike have not  such succes here..many sound recorders prefers to use schoeps cmit or416 or kmr 81 or mkh70 , i dont know why..so i retain some good advices and i will make my benefit from yours experiences.

I leave the "omni" idea behind me.

I"m still aware for others " point de vue" ..

Thank you all.

[studiomprd]

CS3e is terrific! 

there is also the DPA 4017, also excellent!

[YCapus]

Hi gentlemen, i didnt forget you, i was a little busy near the ocean with my new cs3 .. thank you all for put my attention on this mic, you where right, this is the right tool for this situation, i do buy it.

Enjoy the set !

[Jon Gilbert]

Good news! Glad you found the advice helpful.

[soundtrane]

Bintan Indonesia, 30-40 ft from the sea, on the beach... recorded with a CS3e with a Rycote and jammer. 

-vin

Bintan_Beach_01_-_boom_only.mp3

Bintan_Beach_01_-_boom_only.mp3