Jump to content

Pay, Compensation & Rental Rates


Recommended Posts

I've been in the location sound business for about 30 years, in the U.S. I've posted here a few times over the years on various topics. I'm re-visiting here now in Nov of 2022 checking to see if there's been any recent non-union "rate" discussions, as in compensation for work performed. I have found some old compensation rate discussions.  So, have I just not searched here correctly? Anyone in the Definitive Know if there's a current discussion going on? Let me know. Otherwise... perhaps, in light of recent inflation, new discussions on compensation rates may be in order?

 

Why my motivation know? I'm recently hearing of, and seeing in print online, some rates that sound a bit incongruous, to the "high" side, relative to the averages I've been accustomed to my whole career. I'll be specific to kick things off - the rates I'm referring to that seem "high" (not as in "too much", just "above relative to...") are $750-$850 labor/10 portal-to-portal and $450 for a basic kit with a mixer/recorder, 2 lavs and a boom. So, basically, a minimum of $1,200, plus most travel miles and tolls also paid. I'm seeing these rates posted by people with 1/2 to 1/3 the number of years experience I have. Hey, my thanks to them for putting these rates out there! I'm reviewing my rates to see if I'm the no-good-lowballer out there! If so, I'll be adjusting my rates upward.

 

I respect and admire the seasoned pros here too and wonder how these numbers square with your experiences? I know everything is relative, every type job is different, there's regional differences... on and on. But, overall, there are average patterns that fall in place regarding rates, that tend to influence all rates no matter the job type we're working on. What are your rate experiences? Mine, on average, in the New York area, are $500-$750 labor/10 on site, $250-$350 basic kit, with the average labor & basic kit total being $850, with some clients paying tolls/parking/miles, some not. Using another means of averaging, by dividing gross income by number of days worked, I come up with $894, which captures all the higher rate days with lots of rentals and the lower rate days when I sit behind someone's console and just mix. The data period I've used is March of 2022 to late Nov 2022. COVID economic effects seemed to cease in March 2022, at least for me. Thanks for any thoughts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those numbers are correct for non union non commercial rates but I’d say you should look at bumping either category by at least $50 each by the new year. There has been a lot of discussion on this in private groups, but if you search for peoples web sites, their rate cards should reflect these numbers and terms. 
 

oh and the term kit has been abolished since we provide an equipment package rental, and invoice for that. Not a kit that goes through payroll. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for reference. I am an in the south central of the country, in a smaller market and my location sound rates are $700/10 portal to portal plus $195 for a basic rental package. Mileage rates apply. For the agencies that don't have the budget, I do offer half-day labor rates, but I keep the rental package at the same day rate. My basic package is a boom mic, 2 lavs and a mixer/recorder. I throw in some extras like a slate and sound blankets for added value, but that is about it. Anything else requested is an a la carte day rental. For larger markets that aren't very saturated, I would definitely think about raising your rates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right in bringing up this discussion as it really does need to be discussed more (and let's face it, all industries need to discuss pay with their peers more!).  I've quoted $750/10 + gear being negotiable depending on what's needed BUT generally don't let the overall floor go below $1000/day all in.  That being said, there's always exceptions to the rule and personally, my exceptions are:

 

1.  Friend who is doing something where I know they have $XYZ and I'm willing to do it as a favor for that price for them (assuming it's non-corporate or something back breaking).

2.  Someone comes really close to that $1k mile marker and I genuinely think it won't be a back breaking day nor do I think they are lying about not being able to pay more.  If it is for hawking some big brand or whatever and I know they have more $$$, then this is where I really do some soul searching and see if it actually is worth it.

3.  Someone is asking for something silly easy and for just a couple hours work and I have zero else going on.

 

I actually just packed up my van a few minutes ago for exception #3.  Someone I know and like working with offered me a 1 hour sit down interview for $900 today.  All in all, I'll really probably be there more like 3 hours but it's an interview with a very noteworthy musician I like and it is being shot in a literal recording studio so I know sound won't be an issue so I figure hey, why not.  Anyways, I've already told myself that my base labor rate as of January 1st, 2023 I'm going to start saying $800/10 to people so we'll see where that takes me as let's face it, gear ain't getting any cheaper nor is anything else in life!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you are doing a job for 900 bucks for one hour., and you are discussing rates with poor smeggers.
Either I am a total nutcase, or you are a total arrogant SOB.
( Both is possible also, but get real, an hourly rate of 80 is reasonable for a plumber, and as we all know, plumbers dive into sewers thus they earn more.)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bouke said:

So you are doing a job for 900 bucks for one hour., and you are discussing rates with poor smeggers.
Either I am a total nutcase, or you are a total arrogant SOB.
( Both is possible also, but get real, an hourly rate of 80 is reasonable for a plumber, and as we all know, plumbers dive into sewers thus they earn more.)

 

 

I don't know if you're familiar with the cost of living in the Los Angeles metro area but it is egregiously expensive.  I know in my neck of the woods, you need $254,286/year to be able to "afford" the typical mortgage right now!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have preferred doing sewage plumbing to recording many shoots I have been on over the years with abusive directors, producers, ADs and cinematographers.  What they pay you to take their abuse and participate in their exploitive scams is cheap for what you have to put up with, often.  Making good money by working in a business that generates huge profits is why some folks get into and stay in the biz.  In discussions of rates with Europeans I usually remind them that we here in the US get a lot less "for free" in the way of health care, education and so on while rents and the cost of living in urban areas like SF/LA/NY has become silly-expensive.  If you want to shoot here you have to pay the price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JonG, Chris, Codyman and Bouke—thanks. It’s clear my rates need some upward adjustment, I need to be mindful to not undercut other professionals, and, like any business, I should properly adjust for inflation.

I’m surprised that out of 271 views of my post here, at this point, a week later, that only 4 people posted comments. Perhaps talking money out in the open might be considered gouache or perhaps perceived as collusory. I don’t think this discussion, on a public forum, meets the secrecy definition of collusion.

Chris—I’ve not often heard of crew billing portal to portal in my NYC/Philly area—perhaps that’s my bad, not asking around enough. I’d love to know more people’s take on portal to portal.

Codyman—your nuanced approach is how I tend to approach pricing. Perhaps that’s also my weakness—I try to accommodate the needs, or perceived needs, of those that keep dinner on my family’s plates. But, at what point am I being played for a fool? I’m not sure. I’m more comfortable possibly being played for a fool than being perceived as an “arrogant SOB”, to tap into what I think Bouke is saying.

The latest higher-end rate proposal I’ve seen, in a Facebook posting, “$800/10 + $500 basic package in 2023… pass it on.” Some of these postings lack context. Are they are inferring this should be the absolute lowest starting price for any project?

I have a possibly unique external view of sound in small-crew productions. A small part of my business is working as a teleprompter operator with gear. About half of the productions I prompt on don’t have a sound person on the crew—the DP or someone else doing another job covers placing a boom and a lav on the talent. Food for thought.

I don’t mean to diminish how unbelievably demanding, and critical to a production, some sound days can be. If you’re on your feet for a full 10 hours doing a home makeover show, reality show or such—I think you fully deserve at least $1,300 as a starting point. Mixers on a feature—I don’t have the slightest clue how to value that—not my wheelhouse—but it must be way above these numbers.

Have I stirred the pot? More comments, please. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why bring up the sort of jobs that don't have a sound person on them for comparison?  If they don't or can't care enough about their sound recording to hire a real soundie then they aren't part of this discussion.  Sound people lowering their rates a bit will not get them on a job where the producer is satisfied with the sound that a shooter can do with 10% of their attention.  The rates being quoted here are for sound jobs that are challenging, require experience, skill, talent and a great deal of uncompensated package-design and prep for each day of shooting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Philip- this is the kind of detail, supporting a particular rate, I was hoping to hear from someone. I especially appreciate that you pointed out "a great deal of uncompensated package-design and prep for each day of shooting". All crew that show up with "stuff" -  sound, picture, G&E, HMU, props and more - spend "unseen" time on behalf of clients - some more than others. In mulling this many times over the years I concluded all good trades have that "unseen" element - it's part of what makes a pro a pro - preparation. I think what you're pointing to is perhaps other trades get a premium within their rate for this whereas perhaps we don't. Perhaps the younger people entering the sound trade see this and are making things right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, my apologies, I had no clue indeed about cost of living in LA.
Over here the market in film / television has become rotten. the Netherlands has the second lowest price per hour TV from Europe (absolute lowest is Albania, at least that was what I was told by a famous presenter over here.)

I hardly do editing nowadays, but as a coder I'm lucky if I get 80 dollars an hour, and that's always for 'short' jobs. (Say 20 hours tops.)
I will keep this in mind for the next Hollywood job.
(I once quoted 15.000 USD for a job that would have paid for itself within 3 months, and had a lifespan of several years, but that did not fly, no clue why, as no-one else could do it, or at least no one else did afaik...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep in mind, if you’re comparing rates with a plumber:

We quote on a guaranteed 10h day, and that means 8h of straight time + 2h at x1.5, so the plumber’s day rate would equal $80 x 11 = $880/day .
 

However, a plumber can go around and do several jobs in a day, every day of the week, and charge extra for emergency jobs on weekends and holidays. We get booked per day, because every job is completely different, with a vastly different equipment package each time. So there is always prep etc.

 

Our day rate stays the same regardless , because if you book me, it means you bought my services for the day. Mainly because we simply can’t book two jobs in one day. This is also why there is no such thing as a “half-day” rate. Ever.

- Early on when I started out, I tried booking two jobs in one day, and that lead to some serious problems, because the nature of any production is that things change. And they always change on the day of, at the last moment. 

 

Another example - with branded content, most of the time I get called in at 7am with everyone else, but sometimes they shoot stills and slow motion video all day while I’m in standby mode - ready to jump in at any moment - then at the end of the day, I roll on a single “interview” or some one liners for 10 minutes. That doesn’t mean I “only worked for 10 minutes”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always tell people too that I'm not here for the good times of everything going smoothly, I'm here for when things go wrong and then I have backups / plans / the know how in how to navigate whatever is at hand.  Yeah for a sit down interview, some newbie probably could roll in with a Zoom H8, cheap knock off 416 and some unknown brand of lav and record the sound for you, but who knows what problems might arise?  What's the buzz on the recording?  Why did the lav blow out?  etc etc.  I have professional, tested gear and then a whole bevy of backups and solutions to make sure everything goes hunky dory to the point where I can just give you the files after we wrap for the day and you don't have to worry about it.  I can't tell you how many clients I've picked up because either they tried to "do sound themselves" or hired someone that didn't know what they were doing, especially in the documentary world which is something I'm often working in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Call for help today from some well-meaning but under-experienced friends shooting on location about why their two wireless systems would work when only one of them was operating but not both.  Well, they had them on the same freq....   Elementary to us, Greek to most filmmakers.  If their wirelesses had been set up right to start they would have gotten away with their shoot just fine.  But someone had messed with them and they were suddenly hosed for not having a professional along.  And so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my neck of the woods, you aren't going to find many audio guys(and gals) for less (or much less) than $1,000/day(10hrs) with a basic package(mixer, boom and 2x wires), with labor starting at $750.  When work started to pick back up in the second half of 2020, that's when I noticed the audio rates going up and everyone sticking to their guns on it, more.  

 

I admire audio.  Y'all seem to stick together on rates way more than what happens on the camera side, where too many guys will cut their own mothers throats to get the shoot.

 

2 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

Call for help today from some well-meaning but under-experienced friends shooting on location about why their two wireless systems would work when only one of them was operating but not both.  Well, they had them on the same freq....   Elementary to us, Greek to most filmmakers.  If their wirelesses had been set up right to start they would have gotten away with their shoot just fine.  But someone had messed with them and they were suddenly hosed for not having a professional along.  And so on.

Honestly, that should be elementary to almost anyone on the camera or audio side.  But maybe I just take for granted that I actually know about audio, possibly because of my ENG background.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, RunAndGun said:

I admire audio.  Y'all seem to stick together on rates way more than what happens on the camera side, where too many guys will cut their own mothers throats to get the shoot.

Established DoPs will earn far more than we do. They've got a much higher ceiling to their potential earnings. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Currently I am charging $800/10 on payroll ($850/10 on Invoice) plus a basic kit at $350.  I also do a "commercial kit" for $500 which has a pretty loose definition including what most small to mid commercials need, not including comteks.  I charge $15/ea for comteks as ordered on all my packages.

This puts my labor slightly ahead of the going "Key" rate here so I can be a bit flexible depending on the production / producer.  Being a relationship based business I'd rather maintain my relationships and work regularly than argue over $50 or $100 in a day.  I am fortunate enough to be very busy though, so I don't discount very often.

 

I have found that G&E here has always been good about talking with each other and setting a going rate that they stick to.  Following their rate raises has been a lot easier for me than raising my rates on my own.  If I raise my rates at the same time as G&E it seems easier for the line producers to modify their expected budget across the board instead of by individual department.

I think there is some merit to talking about rates with all the departments, not just sound.  I also live in a small market, so that may not apply in NY or LA nearly as much.

 

As for travel, parking always must be provided or paid.  I charge mileage & travel expenses generally outside the "zone".  Ferry rides, tolls etc I bill for if the travel is outside 30 miles, but I don't bill for tolls when I use the local toll routes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do primarily small commercial and branded content shoots in TX.

 

I've been charging 750/10 and 450/day basic kit of 2 lavs, boom, and a recorder without issue in 2022.  The cost of living in Austin has exploded.

 

The matter of experience is a complicated one, but I would rather younger mixers with less experience ask for proper rates than poison the well because of a perceived lack of value due to experience.

 

I think it's incredibly important to talk to the other mixers in your market and try to encourage people to be on the same page about rates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will add that there’s a bunch of jobs a year that I send the rate card to and they respond with “that works for us”. So, it’s numbers they see elsewhere and what they have planned for. When I was in Philadelphia, I’d have 40-50 clients a year. Lots of those were people passing through for a day, or a few days. So, it might be different if you primarily have local repeat clients. That said, remember that the government cost of living adjustment for 2023 is 8.7%. That’s the highest in about 40 years. So we all need to bump rates January 1 or we’re falling behind. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Larry! I always think people having transparent rate discussions is always a good thing, it benefits the industry at large and not discussing rates only serves to help producers keep costs down at our sacrifice. I've been having some similar conversations with steadicam ops and gaffers I know, just for an additional reference point. Ultimately my goal is to provide a premium service and to run an effective business that doesn't cut corners for my clients but in order to do that I don't just need to personally make a living but my business needs to turn a profit too. I feel I charge in way that's fair to both me and my clients.

 

For reference I'm based in Cleveland and mostly live in the commercial, documentary, and corporate world, but occasionally do narrative projects or oddballs.

My current rates (plan to raise in 2023) are $750/10 ($900/10 if union commercial) and equipment varies based on the shoot here is a list of what I currently charge for equipment:

 

Mixer/Recorder: $175/each/day

Booms w/ Mics: $75/each/day

Wireless Booms: $125/each/day

Wireless Lavs: $75/each/day

Camera Hops: $75/each/day

IFBs: $50/each/day

Timecode: $50/each/day

Slate: $75/each/day

It's really all over the place as far as jobs total cost but I have two jobs this coming week.

 

Job 1: Regional commercial with me and my boom op both making $750/10 for labor and an equipment package of 1 recorder/mixer, 1 wireless boom, 5 wireless lavs, 5 IFBs. 3 sync boxes, 1 camera hop, & 1 slate which is $1225 for the day in gear which puts the total at $2725 for the day - $750 for my boom op = $1975 total take home

 

Job 2: Testimonial video at cyc studio on 3 cameras. $750/10 for labor and an equipment package of 1 recorder/mixer, 1 boom, 1 lav, 3 timecode boxes, 1 slate, 8 IFBs, & hardwire mixes. which is $950 which puts the total for the day at $1700 equipment and labor combined.

 

I keep my rates publicly listed on my website that dictates both my rates and terms that I send to every client when negotiating:

https://henrirapp.com/sound-mixer-rates/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Larry!

Fellow NYC based mixer here! Been at it for about 10 years currently. As of late 2022 I’ve been for non union non commercial work quoting $800/10 and $500 base package for a boom, mixer, and two lavs along with parking, tolls, and either mileage or gas (or if coming from my apartment, my Ubers). Any additional gear needed I add on an a la carte basis. For local NYC area jobs (the 5 boroughs), I don’t ask for portal to portal but anything outside of that I always quote for that. This is for any job that would be a “full rate” job and by that I mean any shoot that is a corporate, digital, non profit, reality, and high end documentary shoot. 

If it’s a commercial job, I charge union scale since non union commercials budget similarly as their union counterparts (In NYC its around $973.25/10 so I round it up to $975/10 labor.

Negotiating happens from time to time but I’ve been I’d say about 50 - 60% of the time getting these prices with no pushback. I don’t do half day rates and those on here saying that for “an easy day” they will take less makes things harder for the rest of us. I’ve had many days this year that was a “quick 3 hour interview” but I still get my full 10 hour day rate and gear rental. At worst, I go down to an 8 hour rate at $650/8 and $300 for a boom and mixer package, no lavs plus expenses. 

Having open conversations about rates are how we raise one another up and do better over time. Those doing $200 - $350 for a base package really need to at minimum go up to $450 base since you’re leaving a lot of money on the table.

If you’d want to connect Larry since we’re in the same market and continue the conversation, I’d love to make that happen!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/29/2022 at 11:36 PM, Larry Kaltenbach said:

 

The latest higher-end rate proposal I’ve seen, in a Facebook posting, “$800/10 + $500 basic package in 2023… pass it on.” Some of these postings lack context. Are they are inferring this should be the absolute lowest starting price for any project?

 

 

 

Hi Larry! That was me who said that. First of all, I’m really glad you made this thread. It’s important to have an open discussion. I’m also glad that you seem open to raising your rates as well!

 

I’m in the NYC market, too… so *you* must be the guy producers tell me “our guy usually does it for $800”, to which I respond “then use your guy” (ok, I don’t actually say that out loud, lol)

 

When you, a seasoned pro who is rarely ever going to make a mistake and always going to provide the best audio possible, quotes $800 all in for a day, it hurts the rest of us mixers. I don’t mind when a beginner charges that much, because if they screw up the job, production will learn to stop being so cheap. But when you quote that much, not only are you leaving a lot of money on the table, but you set a baseline to your clients of what rates should be, and it makes it harder for the rest of us to charge our rates. 
 

My $800/$500 post was referring to an opening quote. It’s okay to negotiate down a bit… maybe it’s a boom only job so you knock $200 off the gear, or maybe it’s going to be a one hour interview so you knock $100 off the labor. I would say that portal to portal, mileage, and tolls are a personal preference. If you can get them, that’s great, if you can’t, I don’t think other mixers will say you’re undercutting. I personally don’t often charge them when working in NYC because I live in NJ to save money so I don’t want to lose the job by charging them a $16 holland tunnel toll. But I do charge parking, always, and I’ll do mileage and tolls if it’s outside of the 5 boroughs. 
 

I would say if you’re within $200 of $800/$500, you won’t be undercutting, as long as you are not giving away a bunch of free OT or equipment (like 5 lavs and 10 IFBs for $500 is a big no-no). but definitely open with those numbers. 
 

Remember, NYC is insanely expensive. You need to make like $200k to get a house and raise a family in the surrounding areas, with a 1-2 hour commute. And producers definitely have the money. I’m sure if you ask your gaffer friends, they are making around the same day rate as us. Camera ops usually make $1000/10. So don’t be the lowest paid person (aside from the PA) on set when audio is half the project!


If more than 75% of producers instantly say yes to your rate without haggling, you’re not charging enough. I probably get turned away 50% of the time. It’s okay. Because I only need 2 producers to say yes to $1200 to make the same amount of money as 3 producers saying yes to $800, except I had a day less of work! It was super hard at first, but the more things I turned down, the more things seemed to come. I started quoting “full rate” in January 2020, and I’ve raised my income each year since. In December 2020, at 27 years old, I was finally able to move out of my parent’s house. This year, I was finally able to pay off all my crippling student loan debt. And I finally might be able to buy a house in central Jersey in 2-3 years!

 

Lastly, don’t be afraid when you start quoting these numbers now. It’s slow for all of us now, but that’s why we charge what we do — we save up cash and we can have a nice relaxing winter. It’s definitely easier to get these numbers when it’s busy. But don’t give up. The more people who quote these numbers, the more we’ll get them. Trusting the process is key. 
 

By the way, Gotham Sound is having a holiday party this week in Astoria. I hope to see you there!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Bradley Murphy said:

I do primarily small commercial and branded content shoots in TX.

 

I've been charging 750/10 and 450/day basic kit of 2 lavs, boom, and a recorder without issue in 2022.  The cost of living in Austin has exploded.

 

The matter of experience is a complicated one, but I would rather younger mixers with less experience ask for proper rates than poison the well because of a perceived lack of value due to experience.

 

I think it's incredibly important to talk to the other mixers in your market and try to encourage people to be on the same page about rates.


 

I am in Oklahoma and my current rate has been $700/10 plus $450 basic equipment rental. I am planning to attempt to start at $800/10 and $500/equipment rental in 2023. I have recently updates much of my gear and the prices are through the roof for sound devices and lectro wide band stuff. Also, I understand that labor rates may vary around the country depending on cost of living. That’s understandable. What I think should be consistent across the board for all of us is equipment rental. I believe their should be three levels. Top tier with zaxcom or sound devices pro mixers  and lectro or wisycom or zaxcom wires. Then a medium gear rental rate with mixpre and sennheiser or Sony wires. Then a low budget rate for zoom and budget mics.. this way there is still a way for people with lower end gear to get in the business but for them to understand the difference. this is great that we are talking about proper rates. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow... there's the discussion I was hoping for. Thanks to all for the very specific rates, especially those outside the biggest markets - very telling.

 

A one-paragraph tangent that will weave back to compensation... Robert, Lauren and Henri... I smoked you out, into the discussion over here :)  I've seen you guys, and gal, "out there" on the internets. You are my benchmark as to how my SEO is working for NY and Philly. Interestingly (at least to me), even though I'm now showing up in many Google searches ahead of Production Hub (and y'all), I only get about 10 calls a year from organic searches, Production Hub and Staff Me Up combined for both my sound and prompter businesses combined. I may book perhaps 2-5 days per year from this. How is this relevant to compensation? Read on...

 

You're probably wondering, "2-5 days of work a year? How does this guy survive?" Easy... repeat business. The vast majority of my work is from long-standing relationships, some over decades, and from referrals tied to these long-standing relationships. Thankfully, some of that pitiful-looking response rate from cold-calls also turns into repeat business. When mulling rates, I take into consideration the staggering volume of work my repeat clients have provided and still do provide me, with practically zero "work-finding" effort on my part - I owe them all my career. An actor would owe an agent 15% of all their income for this work-finding.

 

For those who really try to hold their ground at $1,200-$1,300 plus per day - do you not consider work scenarios like NFL Films, that pay $500/ day labor (unlimited hours) and $350 for the package? I'm totally happy working for them as they rarely work me more than 8 hours, their stories have value and are made with passion. I want to work on things like that. How about just sitting behind a sound console at a corporate facility for about 8 hours, getting up out of the chair when done and going home, for $750. No dice? I like a day when I get a break from gear, and gladly take that work. How about network TV news, notorious for lower rates? I love blasting out the door to do a weather live shot at 3 pm to make the 6:40 pm network live shot and then head back home. All of these sub-par gigs offer something other than just money and are often short days - and they add up. As booked thus far through December, my days worked this year will total 175 - with a slow'ish first 3 months - or an average of about 3.25 days per week for all 52 weeks. Are you guys doing about this many days?

 

I now have a very good picture from y'all what to charge in certain client scenarios and for the extremely few cold calls I get. Many thanks. Where do I send your 15% cuts?

 

;)

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...