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LOST: dialog quality


Derek H

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Okay so I'm still hanging in with the convoluted plot behemoth that is LOST..

Anyone notice that the dialog seems a bit poor lately?  (I'm talking audio quality not writing;)

I'm entirely willing to chalk it up to something in the broadcast chain but I don't think it's that..  For example the background sound will be clear as a bell (waves, jungle noise, etc) but the dialog seems muddy and often lacks presence.. as if the whole show was done only with wires buried deep in clothing which I can't imagine is true..

Anyone else know what's going on?  Am I crazy?  Or is it a matter of dual camera shooting wide/tight limitation forcing everything to play off the lavs?

-- or -- am I the only one still watching this show?? 

Also, no offense to the mixer of LOST just in case he/she is lurking on here

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I do not know if Dave Yaffe is still working on it.

I remember reading coffey files magazine about him few years ago.

Do not have an opinion.

Do not watch that show anyways.

Okay so I'm still hanging in with the convoluted plot behemoth that is LOST..

Anyone notice that the dialog seems a bit poor lately?  (I'm talking audio quality not writing;)

I'm entirely willing to chalk it up to something in the broadcast chain but I don't think it's that..  For example the background sound will be clear as a bell (waves, jungle noise, etc) but the dialog seems muddy and often lacks presence.. as if the whole show was done only with wires buried deep in clothing which I can't imagine is true..

Anyone else know what's going on?  Am I crazy?  Or is it a matter of dual camera shooting wide/tight limitation forcing everything to play off the lavs?

-- or -- am I the only one still watching this show?? 

Also, no offense to the mixer of LOST just in case he/she is lurking on here

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i've noticed it too. my english comprension is not so perfect but i've always seen this show with original subtitled audio and, on last episodes, some scenes didn't seem to me as good as always. i also thought to sound editing lacks, maybe, when environment sounds of sea or jungle is not even well equalized upon dialogues in the scenes...

but, i don't allow to criticize someone that certainly has more and more experience than me, it is just for talking..

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Production Mixer is Bobby Anderson Jr and has been on the show the last three seasons. David Yaffe did season 2 and the Pilot. The pilot was directed by the show's creator J.J Abrams - who set the style for the look and action.

I did season 1, first twelve episodes, the back nine of that season was completed by Michael Moore.

Rerecording Mixers were Scott Weber and Frank Morrone. After season 2 it has been Frank Morrone as the lead rerecording mixer and Scott weber on FX & Music.

RL

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Guest Ken Mantlo

I worked with Bobby Anderson for years and know him to be a great mixer that leaves no stone unturned to get the best sound that can be got.  If there is a problem with the sound on that show, I'm sure it was an obstacle that could not be over come by any other mixer.  As you know, sometimes there are things that are beyond your control.  Other times it boils down to whether the producers want to spend the time and money on the problem.

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Guest Ken Mantlo

The producers of "Lost" cared about sound from production thru post!

The multiple nominations for sound attest to the results.

Explain the existence of this thread then.

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I'm entirely willing to chalk it up to something in the broadcast chain but I don't think it's that..  For example the background sound will be clear as a bell (waves, jungle noise, etc) but the dialog seems muddy and often lacks presence.. as if the whole show was done only with wires buried deep in clothing which I can't imagine is true..

They do use a lot of wireless on the show. They're also shooting in jungles, surrounded by insects, trying to avoid jet planes passing overhead, on beaches with wave noise, and lots of other problems.

I think they're trying to avoid ADR whenever possible. My suspicion is that they're using a lot of Cedar DNS-3000 noise reduction (aka "Dialogue Noise Suppression"), because I'm hearing a bit of noise pumping/gating during dialog that stops the moment the dialog stops. I suspect the EQ decisions are a combination of creative choice and limitations of time & money.

Disclaimer: I occasionally worked on the show in post for the first four seasons, and generally thought the tracks were amazing under the circumstances. Absolute first-class work, and DP John Bartley did (and still does) an amazing job. We were occasionally thrown by how the main unit did sound at 30NDF, while the second unit did 48.048 (requiring 29.97), but that was the only road bump.

--Marc W.  [and I just hope we finally get an explanation on the Smoke Monster]

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  • 2 weeks later...

The smoke monster is john locke.. Scratch that mystery off the list.. ;)

After watching a few more episodes I'm inclined to agree regarding the noise reduction processing. 

The muddiness is most apparent when they're on the beach with waves in the background.. 

I've used the NoNoise suite for Pro Tools pretty heavily on a few short films and I remember that it was a delicate balance between killing the noise and making the voice sound like an out-of-phase pancake..

No offense was meant to the fine mixers who have worked on Lost, there's no doubt that it is a challenging show for sound.

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The Smoke Monster is the man in Black, using John Locke's body.  John Locke is dead.  I remember sending an email to David Yafee because I was interested in what mics he was using on the show during his stint.  He was using Sennheiser 816's and 416's for most of the boom work and Sennheiser MKE-2's for the RF work.  I thought at that point the audio was very well done considering the airplane traffic, waves and other environmental noises his team had to deal with.

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Lost is the example I usually point to of a show that goes to great lengths to make the production tracks work. Given what they're up against, I think it's amazing that they're able to get away with as little ADR as they do.

Between constant wind noise, the ocean waves, insects, rain, overhead jets, and everything else, it's a miracle the crew can get usable dialog out of those locations.

I've used NoNoise before, and I don't think that will help with background noise that changes (like ocean surf). NoNoise hasn't changed that much in the past 6-7 years. I suspect something newer like Cedar DNS is being used, or maybe some other advanced processing system.

--Marc W.

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  • 1 month later...

" production mixer Bobby Anderson, who has been with show since Season 3. “I use a Copper Model 106 mixer into a pair of Fostex PD-6 timecode recorders as main and backup. I deliver the dialog elements on two DVDs that contain the main mix on track 1, boom on track 2 and iso mics on the remainder; we may have up to eight or nine actors on a busy scene.” All tracks are recorded flat and wide, with no EQ and maybe a little compression to prevent overloads. “I like to give it all to editorial,” Anderson says. "

" Back in Burbank, the data DVDs are turned over to assistant sound editor Joe Shultz, who ensures that the correct production sound is married up with the video workprint produced from telecine of the location film. “The Fostex records at a sample rate of 48.048kHz/24-bit against 30Hz non-drop timecode, which pulls down during transfer to Pro Tool as 48 kHz to match the 29.94Hz (sic) frame video workprints [and broadcast HDTV visuals]. I start pulling elements as soon as possible”—prior to the director’s cut and the network cut—“so that the tracks are ready for dialog editing. "

" Working with an EDL (edit decision list) from the locked picture edit, dialog editor Maciek Malish builds his Pro Tools session to ensure that the timecode-tagged dialog elements are in sync with picture, adding alternate takes if he thinks they may be needed. Malish has been working on Lost since Season 1. “We also spot the locked picture to determine what shots need to be looped and what backgrounds will be needed,” he says. Backgrounds and walla are recorded as an 8- or 16-track Pro Tools session over two days by The Loop Group. “We record ADR here at Walt Disney Post,” if the actors are on the West Coast, “or in Hawaii, either because of technical problems or to add lines, as necessary.” "

" Foley is recorded and edited by Geordy Sincavage during a two-day session at his downtown L.A.-based facility, Sinc Productions. “Lost is a really busy, sound-detailed show for Foley,” Sincavage explains. “Footsteps are a big thing since we need to match sets that may have wooden and linoleum surfaces. To provide flexibility for several scenes filmed inside a temple, we had three discrete types of stone and concrete surfaces. I also used close and distant miking to offer variation—getting back 10 to 15 feet to make it sound more natural. We also record cloth sounds and other contact effects—the show’s producers like a lot of sonic detailing.” Foley is edited by assistant sound editor Shultz, who for most shows delivers six tracks of feet, four or five tracks of props and additional cloth sounds, etc. "

" “The show is wall-to-wall effects,” ... For most episodes we might deliver up to 150 tracks; for the Season 5 two-hour finale”—and the opening episode for Season 6—“we produced close to 500 tracks; "

we are asked to make the scene be music-driven, have the effects play at a ‘10’ and still be able to clearly hear every line of dialog—that is, indeed, a tall task! "

" The mixer’s biggest challenge is cleaning up production sound and eliminating noise on the tracks. “Our production mixers do a great job,” he concedes, “but, unfortunately, they can only do so much with some of the locations they have to work with. Getting the production to work on the beach is always a challenge because certain characters don’t project, and then dialog is tough to pull out of the backgrounds. "

" “If somebody could invent a performance plug-in to help get in and out of ADR, I’d be in heaven! You can have a perfect EQ match but it is often difficult for actors to get back into the moment. I have had instances where I’m pulling one or two words out of the ADR and using the production for the rest of the line. Consistency is important "

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