Lectro SRa recievers for bag use.. revisited

[Derek H]

Hi team,

I know this subject has been covered in the past but I thought I'd beat the horse again since it's a new year and maybe some new opinions and usage reports have developed...

The lectro SR receiver as an in-bag dual mic receiver..

In my quest to make a fully-functioning over-the-shoulder rig that doesn't rack up chiropractor bills I've been considering getting two of these to replace the usual allotment of 4x individual radio receivers.. 

I know some of you have at least tried this route (Mr. Farr, and Mr. Durfy?) how are you finding the overall performance?  How often do you miss your 411a's?  Once in a blue moon or every time you use the setup? 

I've read all the previous posts on the topic and understand that..

- in heavy RF environments the 411a will be the hero (but how often really?)

- audio quality is the same provided your reception is good

I've also heard about a firmware update that improved things for the SR?

Ultimately, I'm hoping that with some careful frequency coordination and block-spacing from the other transmitters in the bag that this setup can be just as capable on average as the more traditional 4x411a rig..

Penny for your thoughts!

-d

[Zack]

Your idea is my next big financial step as well.  Currently having 2x 411's, im wanting to add in a SR receiver with 2 more UM400a's to give me some more options.  More convenient camera hop set up and or less bag space used when using x4 radios at once.

[Jon Gilbert]

I have limited experience with the SRa receivers, but it didn't leave me desperate to buy a set. I normally use 411's, but a cameraman friend had a very specific requirement for a job which needed older 411's rather than his fancy new SRa's, so we swapped for a month, and in that month I had more RF problems than I can remember having for a long time, I also didn't like that fact that you couldn't power off individual channels, on a long day, running 4 411's you know you can maximise battery life by powering down one's you're not using, you don't get that luxury with SRa's. Sure, they're small, light, have locking power connectors, etc etc, but I'm happy with my current kit for now, I breathed a sigh of relief when I got my own kit back!

[John Blankenship]

...I also didn't like that fact that you couldn't power off individual channels, on a long day, running 4 411's you know you can maximise battery life by powering down one's you're not using, you don't get that luxury with SRa's.

I'm afraid your powering logic escapes me.  An SRA pulls 115ma at 12v.  A single 411 pulls 170ma at 12v.

2 x 411 = 340ma

1 x 411 = 170ma

1 x SRA = 115ma

So, please explain how the 411s are maximizing battery life over an SRA.

I'd be curious how well the frequencies were selected when using the SRA.  A true test would be comparing two 411s on the exact same frequencies that the SRA was tuned to.

Is anyone up for that test?

John B.

[Jon Gilbert]

My powering logic is based on nothing more than not liking to power units I'm not using, I didn't realise the different models had such different power usage. Thanks for putting me right on that!

I'm afraid your powering logic escapes me.  An SRA pulls 115ma at 12v.  A single 411 pulls 170ma at 12v.

2 x 411 = 340ma

1 x 411 = 170ma

1 x SRA = 115ma

So, please explain how the 411s are maximizing battery life over an SRA.

I'd be curious how well the frequencies were selected when using the SRA.  A true test would be comparing two 411s on the exact same frequencies that the SRA was tuned to.

Is anyone up for that test?

John B.

[TomBoisseau]

I'm really hoping some others will chime in on this!!

I am seriously considering purchasing a couple SRa's instead of the 411a's but, if there are really as bad as Jon says, I certainly would want to stay away from them.

Are they REALLY not equal in quality to the 411a's?

Thanks,

Tom

[Adam Jones]

Chiming in...

Well, I've been experimenting with a block 21 SRa & 2 SMQVs for 3 months now.  They were bought as a camera hop that could work as a single extra receiver in diversity mode, but I've been leaning on the system more as a 2 channel receiver.

Today I had 6 transmitters in a very small room, only using the whip antennae, in a very RF rich environment.  No problems at all.  I'm fairly happy with it.  Especially since I can throw the SRa in a bag with a 302 & have a tiny, tiny EFP kit.

FYI, block 21 is quite crowded where I am, and I've not taken a hit yet - nor have I suffered range issues, even using the SMQVs in low power mode.

Good luck trying it.  Or just go with a Venue Field unit!

-A.

[hemmerlinj]

Chiming in...

I used the SR's (not the SRa's) for about 4 months running around with the DEA in Newark NJ.  Pete Sample (sound super) and I ran around with an SR and 1 411a in our bags, all on the same block.  We had 6 tx's going for body packs.  We defintiely had some issues with rf hits with the units, but it was easily overcome by keeping our distance from those persons we had tx's on. 

It seemed as though if we were closer than about 6 feet to any tx we had on a person we would get hits.  If we were farther away than that then it was fine and signal strength stayed quite strong.  Case in point,  we were on a bust in Paterson, NJ and the Supervising producer wouldn't let all of the crew in the building (legal reasons).  While I was outside on the sidewalk both the camera that was receiving my audio (via 411a's) and the 2 agents I had mic'ed were 3 floors up.  Never took an RF hit the whole time and the audio going to camera never took a hit either.  Kudos to Lectro for making a solid product.

I would say that as long as you really plan out your frequencies and spread everything out a little better than we had than you'll probably be fine in most situations.  If you don't need all the channels then you'll end up with a very lite and solid diversity rx for using 1 tx.  If you're buying 2 SRa's I would get blocks that have some space in between them.

And I feel they work great as a mono RX.  Maybe not quite as good as the 411 rx, but better than the 401.

Good Luck,

J Hemmerlin

[Jon Gilbert]

Tom,

Don't let my experiences put you off too much, all I'm saying is that for now, I'm happy with my 411 setup, and am in no rush to buy an SRa kit, if I were in a mood to upgrade then I'd certainly be considering them, but I'd check out the RF issues more. I didn't do exhaustive tests on the frequencies I was using, as I work in documentaries, I get very little set up time, so generally find frequencies that work at home then try to use them on location, I don't have the luxury of retuning everything everytime I get an RF hit.

[studiomprd]

" Are they REALLY not equal in quality to the 411a's? "

YES!!

Lectro says so!! this has been covered before, and Lectro is very good at communicating, so if you really want to discuss it with them, contact them directly.

The SR's are designed to get 2 wireless channels into a small, light, high performance package that fits in industry standard (well, sorta') camcorder slots.

to receive 2 separate frequencies simultaneously across aq 25 mHz bandwidth limits the ability of the units to have a high Q (selectivity) on any one frequency, as the 411's do. one of the reasons Lectrosonics dominated the Production Sound wireless market segment in the 1990's was the incredible rejection of off frequency interference ("Q" again!) of Lectrosonics RX's...

" if there are really as bad as Jon says "

well, if they were bad, they wouldn't be selling like the proverbial hotcakes, would they?? there are objective measurement, and subjective evaluations; there are alternatives to choose from. and of course the rule: generally speaking, you get what you pay for!

"  Maybe not quite as good as the 411 rx, but better than the 401. "

that is what Lectro has said!!

" if I were in a mood to upgrade then I'd certainly be considering them "

depends on exactly what you mean by "upgrade"; by design, the SR is an option, not necessarily an upgrade.

" I don't have the luxury of retuning everything everytime I get an RF hit. "

you are exaggerating, but I understand what you mean;  but then, the performance you get is a result of the operational protocols as well as the units' performance, and thus, the manufacturer has several options (400, 401, 411, VR, VR-field, and SR) available to suit different circumstances and needs.

"(SRa) bought as a camera hop that could work as a single extra receiver in diversity mode "

don't even get me started on comparisons of the various diversity options, all of which are, BTW, "true diversity" options... Read the Lectrosonics guide, or the guides available from most of the other major players in wireless mic's, including Shure, Audio Technica, etc.

"  solid diversity rx for using 1 tx. "

it is probably more important to get the antennae (sic) spaced, than to have dual RX's with antennae (sic) together!

"  We defintiely had some issues with rf hits with the units, but it was easily overcome by keeping our distance from those persons we had tx's on.  "

probably desensing, and / or intermod issues

[Jon Gilbert]

" if I were in a mood to upgrade then I'd certainly be considering them "

depends on exactly what you mean by "upgrade"; by design, the SR is an option, not necessarily and upgrade.

" I don't have the luxury of retuning everything everytime I get an RF hit. "

you are exaggerating, but I understand what you mean;  but then, the performance you get is a result of the operational protocols as well as the units' performance, and thus, the manufacturer has several options (400, 401, 411, VR, VR-field, and SR) available to suit different circumstances and needs.

They would be an upgrade for size/weight/age reasons, My 411's will need replacing sooner or later, but I'm still not sold on the SRa as a replacement.

I was exaggerating, of course, but I'm glad you understand my point. I don't want RF hits, and I got them a lot more during my month with the SRa's than with the 411's, using the same frequencies, and in the same or similar locations.

[PTA]

I've been pretty happy using my SR as a camera hop for the most part.

I'm still having a few things that I'm trying to figure out as far as an optimal setup for levels.  I'm used to going in line level into camera, and I've noticed that when going into something like an HVX, I have to turn up the gain knobs on the camera higher than I'm used to in order to get my tone from the mixer to approximately hit -20 dBFS.

The other day when doing a shoot with an HDX going in line level (going into the XLRs), I wasn't able to get the levels high enough even with the knobs turned up all the way.  It wasn't till later that I learned there are some menu settings on the HDX where you can adjust what kind of line level you are working with.

So my question still is for those who have been using the SR as a camera hop, are you going in line level or mic level to camera in order to get proper levels?

[Zack]

They would be an upgrade for size/weight/age reasons, My 411's will need replacing sooner or later, but I'm still not sold on the SRa as a replacement.

I was exaggerating, of course, but I'm glad you understand my point. I don't want RF hits, and I got them a lot more during my month with the SRa's than with the 411's, using the same frequencies, and in the same or similar locations.

Using my SRa in a bag situation right now with my other two 411a's, and love it.  It's obvious the SRa is not as "powerful" as the 411's but I still didn't have any drop out's.  Just careful usage/selection of clear freq's in your environment will go a long way.  Overall I'm very pleased with the SRa.

@ P-Did... I have a client that uses an HVX.  I've used two 411a's for a camera hop (before I got my SRa) with the output levels of both set to 0db.  There was plenty of headroom both ways for his gain adjustment on the HVX while both inputs being set to line level.  Perhaps there's a -10 +4 level selection in the HVX's menu?  Also, are your transmitters output's set correctly?  I've noticed for line level signals the gain dial (UM400a) is around the 3 to 4 o'clock position.  Also, keep in mind the first hash mark on the HVX (if I remember correctly) is -12dbfs...... I'll try to find a manual to double check that.

Edit... ok first hash is -20 and second is -12dbfs.

[Sam Mallery]

I bought my SRa in January specifically for bag use. I also own two Series 100 wireless kits, and I bought the SRa because the 100 Series were giving me a much harder time than I had anticipated. In hindsight, buying the 100 Series was a big mistake. I've been very happy with the SRa as my main bag receivers. I also bought an SM and an SMQ transmitter in January to go with my SRa. I'm very happy with those too.

My perspective is skewed, because I've never owned 411's. Even though I've never had 411's, I still recognize moments when they would likely outperform my SRa. Here's an example... two weeks ago on an exterior scene, the DP had two grips hollywood some bounce boards. He moved the grips from one spot, and had them both stand right in front of me (of course). When the grips got in my way, I suddenly heard a little squiggling in the audio which sounded like faint mobile phone interference. Just as I was going to ask the grips if they had mobile phones in their pockets, the DP moved them to another spot and the noise left with them.

There's only been a few times like this where I suddenly hear a little weirdness in the audio. So far nothing has caused me any real problems. The few times I've heard interference, I can usually work around it very easily, or the problem goes away before I have a chance to come up with a work around.

I don't regret buying the SRa one bit. I also see the value in having a 411 or two on hand. But, when I buy again, I'll get another SRa before I plop down money for anything else.

@ P-Did... I haven't used my SRa as a camera hop, so I can't comment there.

[PTA]

@Zack - Yeah, the first hash on the HVX is -20.  I'm using SMQVa's as transmitters.  When going line level into the HVX, I believe the knobs are around the 1 o'clock position, where as when I'm cabled to the HVX going line level, they're around 10 or 11 o'clock.

When I was on the HDX, with the knobs cranked up all the way, I couldn't get my tone to hit the -20 mark.  But I think there is a setting on the HDX to change your line level from +4 to -10.

Anyone have experience with the HDX and the SR, not using it in the slot?

[David Settlemoir]

PDF of manual is here:  [ftp=ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_AJ-HDX900.pdf]ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_AJ-HDX900.pdf[/ftp].  Try page 37.

[Zack]

PDF of manual is here.  Try page 37.

humm.. thanks for wanting to link the manual, but it seems to be broken atm.

[David Settlemoir]

I fixed it.  I think.

[Zack]

yup, thanks.

[Jon Gilbert]

I just spent two weeks in Central Africa using the SRa as a camera hop and it worked pretty much flawlessly, there's not much competing RF in the mountains of Rwanda and Congo though

[John Blankenship]

...When going line level into the HVX, I believe the knobs are around the 1 o'clock position, where as when I'm cabled to the HVX going line level, they're around 10 or 11 o'clock...

1 o'clock is the ideal point for an HVX.  At that position, -8dB to -10dB at the inputs gives you -20dB (your nominal reference level) on the meters.  For feeding an HVX cabled, if you're using an SD302, set the 302's output to -8dB or -10dB for a tad lower distortion from the HVX's input stages.

John B.

[Matt McGowin]

If you need to look at camera manuals check out  Farrout Sound's webpage.It is a great place to visit.

Scott Farr's excellent website has pdf manuals for the HVX and HDX and many other types of cameras that have audio inputs.

here is a direct link to that page:

http://web.mac.com/farroutpro/sound/user_guides.html

 

You can also check out the lectrosonics FAQ here:

http://lectrosonics.com/faq.htm

and lectrosonics has an email discussion group too

Matt McGowin

[Zack]

Farrout Sound's webpage.It is a great place to visit.

I pray to have opportunities as this man has... wow lots of fun work!

[PTA]

@ Jon Gilbert

When you were using the SRs as a camera hop, were you going in mic or line level?  I have talked to a few people now who have said that the SR as a camera hop sounds better at mic level.

I did some test with a Sound Devices 552 going to a SD 722 and to my ears there was less noise going in mic level and using the full dynamic range of the 552 and the SR/SMQVs.

[studiomprd]

most folks use what works best (or sounds best) in their particular situation.