A little silk tie help, please.

[RPSharman]

Hello,

I was lucky enough that part of our pre-shoot day, where we shot some stuff for video playback, involved make-up and costume tests.

One of our leads will be wearing a very noisy silk tie.  We had lots of time to test with the stand-in in full costume.

Between myself, my boom guy, and my utility, we tried all sorts of rigs in and around the tie.  All our tie rigs are the typical combination of each of our experiences, so I am confident we have tried all those options.

The problem is the tie itself.  It's surface is a little textured and just makes a lot of noise with any movement.  The directors LOVE the tie.  The costume department hunted the entire South to find 30 duplicates.  We talked to the directors about it, and they really want to make it work (creative process...ugh).

So does anyone have tricks to treat the tie so it makes less noise.  Some kind of oil?  Scotchguard?  "Sanding" the fabric?  We have 30 ties, so I am not opposed to ANY suggestions.

Thanks,

Robert

[hemmerlinj]

I'm sure you've tried this already, but just in case.  A Sanken COS-11 pointing down inside the knot of the tie.  Create a little valley as the tie leaves the knot.  I usually do this with the use of vampire clips that have recently come out for the Sankens.  I've done this with many different ties and never had an issue with noise.  Don't use the wind screen that comes with it either as that will cause problems. 

Good luck.  I hope you find a solution.

J Hemmerlin 

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

Good luck!

[Izen Ears]

  You could try the outside pocket of the jacket if he's wearing a jacket.  Depending on the jacket that could work, but I've also had ridiculous and inexplicable noise from a front-pocket rig.

  I've never been able to deal with a loud silk tie, I've tried the Sanken in the knot pointing down with a "hush lav" foam around it, doublesticking the tie down to the shirt and also to itself.  Still sounds like sandpaper.

  I'm very interested in this thread because my only luck has been as far from the tie as possible.  The collar reduces tie noise but sounds like ass!

  Dan Izen

[ProSound]

I usually use the Sanken with or without hush lav. Only luck I have had with noisy ties is Countryman B6 hanging outside of the tie knot by about 1/4-1/2 in. In my situation doing this the ties were very dark or light so the B6 wasn't visible at all. 

I agree with Izen collar sounds bad

[Kevin Sorensen]

One thing (of many) to consider when putting the microphone in the knot of the

tie, is beard stubble at the neck area. When the actor turns his head the stubble rubs against the collar, like a small wire brush, transmitting the noise directly to your mic-rig.

You could put mole skin on the inside of the collar, or request the make up dept. to keep his neck shaved if this is the culprit.

You my not have the same difficulty when working with the actual actor.

Kevin 

[Izen Ears]

  I agree stubble is an issue it rubs against a collar or tie (even superquiet fabric).  Sometimes freshly shaved is worse! 

  I do always have something between the tie and the mic, whether it's moleskin, a hush lav foam (or small piece of one), or butyl.  And the mic element is always in the air not touching anything.

  Sometimes even if the tie *and* shirt are quiet, a houndstooth or tweed jacket will spoil the whole damn thing!

  I had wardrobe tell me silk is one of the best looking fabrics for film...  Too bad cotton can't catch the light like silk!!!  We ALL would have an easier time getting that pristine product.

  Dan Izen

[DBurnette]

One thing (of many) to consider when putting the microphone in the knot of the

tie, is beard stubble at the neck area. When the actor turns his head the stubble rubs against the collar, like a small wire brush, transmitting the noise directly to your mic-rig.

Ahhhh. Stubble killed my lav audio on one project...Luckily, it was while I was in school...So I just call it a learning experience, and a reminder to mention stubble to the powers that be.

As for the silk tie, maybe wardrobe can hand-baste it to the shirt? Or go all-out and remake a couple into clip-on ties? That and double-sided tape might keep it still enough...

[Philip Perkins]

  You could try the outside pocket of the jacket if he's wearing a jacket.  Depending on the jacket that could work, but I've also had ridiculous and inexplicable noise from a front-pocket rig.

  I've never been able to deal with a loud silk tie, I've tried the Sanken in the knot pointing down with a "hush lav" foam around it, doublesticking the tie down to the shirt and also to itself.  Still sounds like sandpaper.

  I'm very interested in this thread because my only luck has been as far from the tie as possible.  The collar reduces tie noise but sounds like ass!

  Dan Izen

We haven't much luck w/ the mic in the knot thing so far, for all the reasons stated.  Our best solutions have involved getting AWAY from the damned tie as much as we can.  Coat lapels, breast pockets, etc.  None of these will work as often as a center-chest mounted lav (head turns etc), but it does help a lot w/ the tie.  You may discover that you have to move the lav around to diff positions to cover different action.  OR...explain that you are out of ideas and tools for making this work, and thus will have to boom/plant mic the tie-wearers or they will have to "commission" a tie that looks right but works for sound.  (And good luck with THAT.)  I won't insult you with any suggestions for rigging the current noisy tie, but the breast pocket thing (esp if the show owns the wardrobe) has worked GREAT for me...

Philip Perkins

[John Blankenship]

You've probably already covered this base, but:  If it's a possibility, a hair rig may be your best choice.  Position the mic forward of the curve of the head.

I hope the actor isn't a soft-spoken bald guy.

John B.

[Zack]

I had this same problem a few months ago on a show with Tony Todd.  His wardrobe was very very synthetic, and with one of these super noisy ties.  He also had some stubble with a fairly tight neck fit.  Any movement created massive sandpaper lav noise no matter where I tried to put it.  I couldn't try a hair rig (maybe you have this option). I tried inside the collar, tie, in between the button flap, but ended up having the best results just taping it to his chest near the bottom of his sternum where there's a slight gap between his under shirt and chest.

I got to the point where I just talked to wardrobe and asked if they could use some less noisy wardrobe, which helped after the fact for the rest of the shoot.  This situation put more priority on getting good boom position, which saved the day for me.  I was not happy with how the lav came out, it was a ruff.  Good luck Robert, please post how you got by though

[RPSharman]

These are all great suggestions, and we tried almost all in the test, including the vampire clips for the COS-11, hush lavs, and placements all around (no hair possibility, but a good thought).  The plan is to have the top button undone to avoid the scratchy neck.  We might pre-assemble a handful of ties with the two parts topsticked together and line the back with moleskin.  We all agreed that you can't stick it to the shirt.  It looks ridiculous.  The movie takes place in one day, so this is the costume for the whole movie.

I was hoping that perhaps someone knew of a treatment to the fabric to make it less noisy.  We are not worried about "ruining" the tie.  We have a lot of them.

Robert

[Joshua Anderson]

Robert, I think you should call the manufacturer of the tie.

Josh

[RPSharman]

Robert, I think you should call the manufacturer of the tie.

I did, but my Chinese just isn't that good.

[graham]

Rather than moleskin, hush lav, or anything porous that will catch on the fabric maybe try the 3M waterproof tape(rubberish skin color one in pharmacies). Wrap it around the lav a few times for separation/cushioning and do the tie knot down.

[RPSharman]

Rather than moleskin, hush lav, or anything porous that will catch on the fabric maybe try the 3M waterproof tape(rubberish skin color one in pharmacies). Wrap it around the lav a few times for separation/cushioning and do the tie knot down.

I have some of that.  I'll give it a try.

Robert

[Michael P Clark]

I assume you have tried Joes Sticky Stuff?

I've had success (sometimes) separating the jacket from the tie (a lot of noise caused here) with tape folded like a "football" (think Paper football when we were kids)just off the tie inside the jacket, or of course locking the jacket to the tie(not the best but works, sometimes), with Joes, or Topstick(Super Stick).

Have you locked the tie down around the neck?

[RPSharman]

Forgot to mention...no jacket.

[Audio Daddyo]

Hi Robert, You never mentioned anything about the shirt that is being worn.  What kind of material is it?  Is it starched?  Could the noise becoming from the shirt itself or the tie rubbing against the shirt?  Are you certain that the noise is coming solely from the tie rubbing against itself? Andy

[jason porter]

how about a boom mic?

Just kidding

Would it be possible to use the Pin Mic?  or maybe a B6 poked through the tie, sternum-height?  (below the bottom of frame in the CU, but small enough to disappear on the WS)

[Jim Gilchrist]

Hey, Robert

How about sending one of the 30 ties to the dry cleaner? May change the texture without substantially altering the look, or could remove some of the sizing from all those bits on the inside of the tie. Or exploring having wardrobe replace the interlining of one of the ties with a more supple material as a trial?

Best regards,

Jim

[Philip Perkins]

Hey, Robert

How about sending one of the 30 ties to the dry cleaner? May change the texture without substantially altering the look, or could remove some of the sizing from all those bits on the inside of the tie. Or exploring having wardrobe replace the interlining of one of the ties with a more supple material as a trial?

Best regards,

Jim

Good ideas. 

Would ironing the back of the wide part of the tie and both side of the narrow end (that's hidden) help?  Would it be possible to tie the tie to the correct length, then cut off the narrow "tail"?  (They would have to leave the tie tied and just loosen it to get it over the actor's head when he takes it off. )  That might reduce the number of noisy surfaces sliding around.

Bummer about no jacket--that reduces your easy options by about 2/3rds.

I'm requesting this topic become a sticky--ties are the bane of every location soundie's life.

Philip Perkins

[RPSharman]

I'll have them send a tie in for cleaning.  Good idea.  We get our actor in a week, and I am getting a tie tomorrow to experiment.

The shirt is a cotton button-down.  No texturing and quite soft.

Thanks again to everyone for great suggestions.

[BVS]

What has worked for me with Joe's Sticky Stuff is to stick the back of the knot of the tie to the button of the shirt so as to include the cable and follow with it down to the end of the knot and stick that as well to the shirt.The knot is now locked with the cable. Take the cable inside the shirt and secure in there in the usual manner. The rest of the tie can move freely and swing to its heart content.

Brian

[mikewest]

I tend to use B6 in ties and match the colour by painting the crisper cap if needed.

The next step is to stabilise the tie so is does not move using double side or pins

mike