Apple vs. Adobe War

[Marc Wielage]

There's an interesting war brewing between Apple and Adobe, as witnessed by this recent statement by Steve Jobs on Flash:

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Jobs makes some good points that they have to move away from proprietary systems like Flash for mobile devices like the iPhone and the iPad, which use low-power chips. But Adobe is howling mad, and a lot of industry pundits are weighing in about it:

Engadget

Gizmodo

Fortune

And this doesn't even touch on the recent stolen iPhone prototype debacle, which is one of the most bizarre tech stories of the past decade. Jason Calicanis weighs in on this in an excellent editorial at this link.

I mention all this in passing, just because it affects the world of the internet that we see every day, and will eventually have an impact on the computers we use in our work.

Lotsa weirdness and blustering going on. It almost makes Hollywood look calm by comparison...

--Marc W.

[Philip Perkins]

The problem is that Apple, Adobe, Facebook, Google etc all want to "own the desktop" (they've said as much in videos I've worked on w/ all of them).  Jobs is defending his turf, but it sucks, actually, for the industry and for a lot of users.

Philip Perkins

[Marc Wielage]

It's definitely a very complicated situation. I'm on record as not always agreeing with Jobs, though I'm a Mac fan. The company can be very vexing, difficult, arrogant, surprising, brilliant, and innovative -- often at the same time.

The real problem as I see it is, Jobs isn't just telling Adobe to stop emphasizing Flash. He's sending the message out to all major websites: "if you don't abandon Flash and move to HTML5, Apple customers won't be able to see your site." That's rough...

BTW, I also dislike Adobe as a company, too. Their very non-standard software updates and installers are really, really annoying (on both Windows and Macs), and I think their products are ridiculously expensive. But I still use them all the time.

--Marc W.

[RadoStefanov]

The main issue apple is trying to avoid is I-users watching any video they want on sites like hulu.

That would be interfering with their ITUNES sales.

I BET majority of I-user wants flash now!!!!

Jobs is talking future but never cared about his users. Only cares about profits.

Blu Ray avoidance is a good example. Lack of HDMI.

The missing 64bit Adobe photo-shop which was totally OSX fault is another.

Lets not forget apple paying BLACKMAGIC  not to release WINDOWS drivers.

To avoid any attacks I would say this:

YES I AM BIASED.

My personal opinion is that APPLE is evil. Has worst business practices.

Closed OSX to their software at least they think it is. "easily installed on any OTHER PC"

Its a cult that hypnotizes its customers.

It is unfair to them and to its underage and adult workers.

Its manufactured in china like any other electronics.

It charges for Service Pack updates.

It is very easy to hack. I can bypass an apple password in 1 minute.

The firewall is weak AND DISABLED BY DEFAULT OUT OF THE BOX.

Every service pack renders majority of software and drivers unusable.

You have to spend a lot of time and a lot of UNIX programing to customize OSX to your needs.

Overcharges for accessories.

Atacking HTC because it is to afraid to go against Google directly.

There a lot of other things I do not like but I am getting tired typing.

Good things about apple.

Comes out of the box with kinda calibrated Monitor/Video card.

Finley fixed their audio drivers.

The best thing they have is FINALCUT which they got from MACROMEDIA.

People say something like:

Mac looks cool or makes them look cool.

I am impressed with them for still existing in the computer business.

I predicted in 2000 that they would stop making  computers by 2010.

I was afraid to give my oppinion on a site where majority of people maybe like apple.

Now if somebody need to respond please do not just say : NO WAY APPLE IS COOL but tell me where I lied or misrepresented facts.

[RadoStefanov]

Forgot to mention in my defense....

I have never used any other hardware then ASUS from the very beginning of the company.

Always followed their memory recomendation.

Never seen a blue screen since windows 95.

I do not use an anti virus software. Never have never will.

[Jeff Wexler]

I was afraid to give my oppinion on a site where majority of people maybe like apple.

Now if somebody need to respond please do not just say : NO WAY APPLE IS COOL but tell me where I lied or misrepresented facts.

Where do I start...

It will take me some time to respond, not so much to defend Apple because I certainly have some problems with the company, but there are so many things that are not facts in your statements, I need to correct these things. By bestowing on Apple the status of a cult you have managed to also develop a level of anger and distrust that is not warranted. You are also attacking one of the most successful "cults" ever, surpassed only by some of the major religions of the world.

[Twade]

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/02/20/an-adobe-flash-developer-on-why-the-ipad-cant-use-flash/

[Tom Visser]

Of course this is all conjecture, as I'm not Steve Jobs nor do I know that much about him, but from a business perspective it makes sense to me.  Adobe has the most widely distributed intermediary for running applications and streaming video. I don't remember the figures, but their installed base was in the high 90 percentile for desktop and laptop computers.  With FLASH, one can run applications, especially games, and watch video from a variety of sources.  Apple has the AppStore and iTunes Store and wants to sell you games, movies, and music.  FLASH is a direct threat to the Apple commerce model as it allows an end user to bypass the iTunes / AppStore mechanism.  Therefore it makes sense that Steve Jobs would make strident efforts against Adobe.  The reason why he is doing it now?  In the past, with the dominance of desktop and mobile computers, and with Adobe's 90something % installed base, Apple simply didn't have any leverage against Adobe to do anything about it.  Now that Apple has released its own in-house mobile communications devices, in the form of iPhone, iPod Touch, and now iPad, they have been able to simply not include Adobe support, in a potentially non-competitive manner.  Because a very large % of web browsing is now done on the iPod/Pad/Touch, they now have the leverage they need to make an offensive move against Adobe.  With respect to mobile browsing, Apple even has a majority market share.  I don't like attributing personality traits with companies.  Business is business.  It is only logical for a business to maximize its profit potential.

The arguments that Steve uses, Apple supports open source (HTML5), Adobe is poorly coded (FLASH Virtual Machine), are mostly true, but it is ironic that despite the open source charge, the real objective is to 1) increase revenue of the closed iTunes environment and 2) even though Apple will not be the only platform on which to develop new HTML5 applications and webspheres, it will at least take away that dominance from Adobe.

Adobe has to be given credit for successfully creating a multi-platform environment that offers truly portable code.  No other programming environment can claim this.  Because of the FLASH VM and the sandbox that it creates, code can be written once and run on most any platform (other than those new ones where FLASH is specifically absent), whether it is Windows, OS X, or Linux.  This was the original dream of Sun's JAVA, which has completely failed, with respect to portable code.

I think a lot of people think of FLASH and the annoying advertising banners come to mind.  This is of course the fault of web marketing, not Adobe as a company itself, but Jobs is capitalizing on the general public's dislike of aggressive advertising techniques and the "cult of Mac" to help fuel his charge against "closed proprietary systems", but from the informed mind of a businessman, it should be pretty apparent what the objectives are.  Even so, I think Apple is doing the right thing, it is looking out for its own interests.  The strongest company will survive and the weaker ones will either evolve or go away.  That is the true capitalistic method for providing the best value for the consumer.  It is not a hand holding / hugging / happy smiling stroll down software lane.  Business is war and the consumer is the battleground.

[RadoStefanov]

Where do I start...

It will take me some time to respond, not so much to defend Apple because I certainly have some problems with the company, but there are so many things that are not facts in your statements, I need to correct these things. By bestowing on Apple the status of a cult you have managed to also develop a level of anger and distrust that is not warranted. You are also attacking one of the most successful "cults" ever, surpassed only by some of the major religions of the world.

Totally agree!!! IT IS AN AMAZING CULT.

Which facts I got are wrong?

[soundtrane]

And i agree with Tom

[RadoStefanov]

My response to Tom

First check your facts. Apple does not have majority stake on web browsing. That is only true for mobile devices and it is getting smaller and smaller every day.

The arguments Steve Jobs has are wrong.

The Iphone is the most unsecured devices ever existed.

I CAN HACK the IPHONE WITH A SMS.

Paypal has been banning Safari users using its service.

Steve jobs has no right talking about security!!!

Also Mac OSes are not open source at all.

Talking about HTML5 in the future is like talking about Blu Ray not being useful since you can download highdef movies from ITUNES. Never happened and never will. 45gb movie is unpractical for downloading.

NOt to mention the argument about X264.

New version of flash supports X264 for Macs.

Now I agree that since Apple became PC, writing software and drivers for OSX has became easier.

My point is this:

I believe APPLE does not want FLASH for  2 resons.

It interferes with their ITUNES sales.

Flash needs more hardware resources then anything else.

Apple are notorius for using the slowest hardware on their products. " I am not talking about the top of the line Gseries."

I have had a cell phone for the last 6 months that uses "the same" processor as the "amazing" Ipad.

IN CONCLUSION: THEY DO NOT WANT FLASH BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST THEIR BUSINESS THAT CONSIST OF SLOW HARDWARE AND ITUNES CRAP.

[RadoStefanov]

O and I forgot good luck waiting for html5 being implemented world wide.

It was first mentioned in 2004. Google worked on it 4 years and released the recommendations in  2008. I t was supposed to be finalized by 2008.

Now it is 2010 and it is still work in progress.

TO SAY THAT YOU DO NOT NEED FLASH NOWADAYS IS RIDICULOUS.

[RadoStefanov]

And also Jobs should not talk about open source.

He is banning apps everyday from Itunes.

Censuring apps?????

He even went as far as deleting apps remotely from Iphones.

Prosecuting people for talking about apple? Not to mention pushung one of his workers to suicide after torturing him for 4 days..

You have to understand I came from a Communist country and apple behaivior is the same as the 6th secret police.

O yes and it is funny they started the "I AM PC" adds when they became a PC...

I should stop talking before I get banned from here.

[Jeff Wexler]

IN CONCLUSION: THEY DO NOT WANT FLASH BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST THEIR BUSINESS THAT CONSIST OF SLOW HARDWARE AND ITUNES CRAP.

So, I guess you own't be getting the new iPad?

[RadoStefanov]

Jeff I have no problems with people buying apple. My wife has been an apple user for a long time. Now she has a PC with OSX that I purchased installed.

Now I know I am breaking their agreement but I do not believe When I buy a product I have to be prohibited from using it with other product.

Imagine sound devices 552 you can use with 7 series recorders only...

I have problems with is their stupid business practices and excuses about everything constantly misleading customers.

Remember them saying that closing your laptop and keeping it working may result in fire?

So, I guess you own't be getting the new iPad?

[Jeff Wexler]

Microsoft weighs in on Flash support:

Stepping into the Flash debate just hours after Apple CEO Steve Jobs issued his "Thoughts on Flash" letter discussing why Apple has elected not to include support for Adobe's Flash on its iPhone OS devices, Microsoft general manager for Internet Explorer Dean Hachamovitch noted this his company is throwing its weight behind the H.264 standard promoted by Apple for future HTML5 video content.The future of the web is HTML5. Microsoft is deeply engaged in the HTML5 process with the W3C. HTML5 will be very important in advancing rich, interactive web applications and site design. The HTML5 specification describes video support without specifying a particular video format. We think H.264 is an excellent format. In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video only.Hachamovitch goes on to acknowledge that video on the web today is primarily Flash-based, and while Microsoft continues to work with Adobe on Flash, he also notes that it carries some issues related to reliability, security, and performance.

Hachamovitch's comments suggest that while Microsoft recognizes the dominant role played by Flash, it is also looking ahead to the future, where it sees a much more prominent role for HTML5 and H.264, a view shared and being pushed forward by Apple in its decisions and communications.

[Jeff Wexler]

Steve Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash"  excerpts:

Apple CEO Steve Jobs today posted a lengthy open letter offering his "Thoughts on Flash" in an attempt to clear up some of the controversy over Apple's relationship with Adobe and its unwillingness to incorporate Flash capabilities into its iPhone OS devices.I wanted to jot down some of our thoughts on Adobe's Flash products so that customers and critics may better understand why we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. Adobe has characterized our decision as being primarily business driven - they say we want to protect our App Store - but in reality it is based on technology issues. Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true. Let me explain.Jobs then proceeds to lay out six aspects to Apple's argument against the use of Flash:

- Openness: Flash is a proprietary product, making it a closed system. While Apple also offers proprietary products, it believes that all web standards should be open. Jobs points to Apple's support of open standards such HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, as well as its own contributions to open source projects such as WebKit.

- "The Full Web": One of Adobe's arguments is that a lack of Flash compatibility prevents Apple mobile devices from accessing "the full web" because 75% of video in that format. Jobs counters that almost all of this video is available in the more modern H.264 format and viewable on iPhone OS devices. He also points to the YouTube application and a list of other sources all offering video in iPhone-compatible formats. With respect to Flash-based games, Jobs concedes that the iPhone is unable to play them, but notes that there are over 50,000 game and entertainment titles on the App Store, many of which are free.

- Reliability, Security, and Performance: Jobs points to a Symantec study showing Flash having one of the worst security records last year and notes that Flash is the #1 reason Macs crash. While Apple has been working with Adobe to address these issues, the problems remain. Jobs also claims that Apple has yet to see Flash performing well on any mobile device, something it has repeatedly asked Adobe to demonstrate.

- Battery Life: Long battery life essentially requires hardware decoding of formats such as H.264, but most Flash website continue to use older decoders that must run in software, crippling battery life for mobile devices.

- Touch: Interactive Flash content is mouse-driven and not easily compatible with Apple's touch-driven iPhone OS. Jobs argues that developers who need to rewrite their Flash websites to support touch anyway should look to more modern technologies like those supported by Apple.

- Flash as a Third-Party Development Tool: Jobs outlines Apple's arguments against allowing developers to create iPhone applications using Flash or other third-party development tools, citing sub-standard performance and a reliance on those third parties to adopt changes and improvements. Apple wants developers building directly on iPhone OS for the best experience possible.Our motivation is simple - we want to provide the most advanced and innovative platform to our developers, and we want them to stand directly on the shoulders of this platform and create the best apps the world has ever seen. We want to continually enhance the platform so developers can create even more amazing, powerful, fun and useful applications. Everyone wins - we sell more devices because we have the best apps, developers reach a wider and wider audience and customer base, and users are continually delighted by the best and broadest selection of apps on any platform.Jobs concludes by noting that Flash was developed during the era of PCs and mice, but today's low-power, touch-based mobile devices require new standards and technologies.Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

[Jeff Wexler]

You can read the full Open Letter from Steve Jobs HERE

[RadoStefanov]

The whole letter is bullshit

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36877984/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

And while I understand the microsoft support for X264 they support flash on their systems.

I have had flash on my Winmo phone for at least 2 years.

I am not here to defend Flash.

I am stating that Apple does not want flash because they want to control the web experience of their users.

[RadoStefanov]

http://www.gofanboy.com/go-fanboy-news/2575-fanboys-who-believe-steve-jobs-about-adobe-flash-are-blind-idiots

[RadoStefanov]

"Jobs is well aware that Flash would offer too many options to the consumer and eat away at his precious profits."

[Marc Wielage]

I think what Tom says above is right. I'm sympathetic to Rado's point of view, and don't forget, I'm a Mac fan but I often find myself at odds with Apple the company. (I particularly dislike what they do to iPhone developers.)

But they make great stuff. Sometimes I have to divorce my opinion about a company (or person or whatever) as a whole, and concentrate on what I need and want. For example, Axl Rose is a jerk as a human being, but I liked Guns 'N' Roses (in the old days). Great music -- lousy person.

In the long run, I think Steve Jobs is right about HTML5. But it's gonna be real tough to get every website in the world rewritten and moved away from Flash.

[bracing myself for Courtney's onslaught] 

Update: you gotta wonder what Apple is doing right. Their stock is hovering at about $260 (all-time high), they're the #1 U.S. cellphone maker, a million App Store apps have already been downloaded, they've sold ten billion iTunes downloads...  And yet there are people that absolutely flat-out hate them.

I don't see Apple as an evil company, but they can be very combative and arrogant, no question. I always say, I try to be an OS agnostic: I dislike all operating systems equally, and use them all -- whatever gets the job done. I actually like Windows 7, but I'm doubtful I'd switch to using it exclusively... though it's the best "fake Mac" OS experience I've seen so far.

--Marc W.

[RadoStefanov]

I think John Stewart put it best :

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-28-2010/appholes

[soundtrane]

Agree with Mr. Wielage, i too have used and still use various OS, and i wish i had learned more about Unix in the times past, as of now, there's too much on my plate to accomodate Unix self-tutorials...

-vin

[Marc Wielage]

And now Adobe has fired back at this link:

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/04/29/live-blogging-the-journals-interview-with-adobe-ceo/

Boy, is he pissed.

Other reports on the net indicate that Flash use has been dropping over the past few months. It's only gonna escalate now.

Boy, I remember when Flash was really cool and innovative. Now, I'm just annoyed by pop-up ads that won't go away, especially the ones that move all over the screen. And this is on a Mac, with a browser that's supposed to block pop-ups. You can't block 'em if they're done in a certain way with Flash.

--Marc W.