Wireless vs Hardline to boom

[Jeff Wexler]

-snip- And the deal w/ my concern re the OP is more about perception and trying to avoid a situation where an editor tells a producer that tracks he thinks are wireless boom are causing him problems -snip-

Philip Perkins

This is so true what Philip says regarding the perceptions of an editor, or a producer, after the fact. I was asked by a producer friend of mine to come into the editing room and tell them what was wrong with a scene they were having lots of trouble with. When I got there and viewed the scene on the Avid, they told me that they were going to fire their sound mixer. They really wanted me to do a sort of "audio autopsy" to determine what killed the soundtrack. It was obvious to me, just one viewing/listening, what had happened, but it was also obvious that the production sound mixer should not be at the center of this and with his job in jeopardy. I was able to carefully explain what I believed had happened, why the sound for the scene was the way it was, I saved the sound mixer's job and I believe that I may have elevated the producer and the editor to a better understanding of our jobs. If I had not been called in, these two probably would have come to different conclusions about the sound and how it was recorded.

[Zack]

Ok, it's my fault for bringing up the off topic... sorry to all, I was just being coy.  Please continue with this discussion, since I'm very curious why using wireless boom is "supposedly" bad?

I have been using it quite a bit with my current shoot, mostly because using a cable would be impossible... (like a lake separating myself from my boom op kind of scenarios).  Some of our locations have been just so outdoorsy wild terrain that dragging my cable around in the mud and snow just seems ridiculous.  Every day after wrap I go over many of the dialog recorded and really don't notice artifacts..... maybe I just have my gain locked in very well and have a terrific boom op that is doing a great job with mic placement.  I noticed the noise example from that link right away.  If I heard that with my set-up I would have totally got out the cable instead.  I've had the producers/directors telling me every other day that everything is sounding great... so I really have not developed a reason to be discouraged with this wireless boom practice yet.  Don't get me wrong, I usually run a line for boom, this is the first time it has been a bit exclusive for me though.  I guess I'll just have to learn the hard way some day.... ?

[Chris R]

This is so true what Philip says regarding the perceptions of an editor, or a producer, after the fact. I was asked by a producer friend of mine to come into the editing room and tell them what was wrong with a scene they were having lots of trouble with. When I got there and viewed the scene on the Avid, they told me that they were going to fire their sound mixer. They really wanted me to do a sort of "audio autopsy" to determine what killed the soundtrack. It was obvious to me, just one viewing/listening, what had happened, but it was also obvious that the production sound mixer should not be at the center of this and with his job in jeopardy. I was able to carefully explain what I believed had happened, why the sound for the scene was the way it was, I saved the sound mixer's job and I believe that I may have elevated the producer and the editor to a better understanding of our jobs. If I had not been called in, these two probably would have come to different conclusions about the sound and how it was recorded.

I would be interested in hearing more about this particular situation you mention.

Always educational hearing what caused post a problem and why they blamed

the mixer ..etc.

[mikewest]

I've dealt with similar situations and understand your concern.

I will always refer to RESERVOIR DOGS.

IMDB did not show me the sound mixer, but that must have been a radio and a boom

Remarkable job sorted out in post.

Wide shots, screaming, low level dialogue!

There the key and guide to providing post with options and not what we would

prefer as sound mixer.

My thoughts

mike

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

Ahhhh...another thread disintegrates into a RED topic.  The sad fate of many.

Just as well though, the original topic was pretty well played out.

OK...I guess I was wrong. 

[Scott Smith]

It should be engraved on the top or side of the transmitter.

--Scott

Scott,

Pretty sure I have a standard SM. How can you tell? 

[graham]

I've had the producers/directors telling me every other day that everything is sounding great...

A blind man turned to another and said "It looks great!"

For some reason thats all I could think when i read that line. For all I know, they could be ex-mixers themselves. The bottom line is if it sounds good to you and you sign off on it, end of story(until you get a phone call...)

FWIW i go hardline whenever i can. I use a MM1 for a phantom power supply and return monitor to the boom op. If we have to go wireless, then its adding a mc35, a tx with the preamp down, tweak the gain on the MM1, and R1A for communication and/or monitor depending if the boom op wants the R1A to loop into the MM1 return

[RPSharman]

I would hate the example used here to vilify the use of wireless boom to discourage the use of wireless boom for new mixers.

While I am one of the mixers who uses wireless boom most of the time, I can't imagine EVER turning in something that sounds anything like the example posted here.  Who knows what kind of dreadful gear and/or settings and/or mic placement was used in this situation.

Proper mic placement is key to recording good production sound, and with schedules being compressed and sets being tossed together by inexperienced DPs, gaffers, and key grips, giving my boom operator the freedom to adjust his position freely, therefore not compromising the mic position, is something I find to be very important.  And using professional gear in the proper manner is also critical.

Robert

[gabi]

I would hate the example used here to vilify the use of wireless boom to discourage the use of wireless boom for new mixers.

(...)

Proper mic placement is key to recording good production sound, and with schedules being compressed and sets being tossed together by inexperienced DPs, gaffers, and key grips, giving my boom operator the freedom to adjust his position freely, therefore not compromising the mic position, is something I find to be very important.  And using professional gear in the proper manner is also critical.

Robert

I totally agree.

But I have to disagree that the use of wireless booms is a lack of concern of quality. I would never use a wireless boom if I thought it would compromise my track. With the exception of situations with yelling and whispering during the same shot, a wireless boom can sound as clean as hardline if one uses high quality gear and the gain structure is set properly. I have been using the MM1/UM400a combo for a year with great results and I'm very happy with it.

Gabi

[Philip Perkins]

I would be interested in hearing more about this particular situation you mention.

Always educational hearing what caused post a problem and why they blamed

the mixer ..etc.

It turned out that the production mixer whose tracks the OP (on Gearslutz, an editor) was complaining about was a friend of his and they discussed the issue.  The situation on set was pretty much what I surmised--small sound crew, pushed for speed, loud set so the compander artifacts are hard if not impossible for the mixer to hear.  But I bet that guy tries little harder after all that.....right, Sherlock? 

Philip Perkins

[Matthias Richter]

this audio sample reminds me when I was using audio 2020 for the boom. It always was searching for the one tx with less companding sounds than the others. And I couldn`t believe that all the other guys where using this system without complaining.

Now that I use Zaxcoms TRX 900 + Areitec 48V those problems are not existend any longer. I still notice slightly higher hiss than going hard. So whenever it is a really quiet set I still prefer to use a cable. But 90% is wireless boom for me. With a two man team it is a great advantage not to worry bout the cable.

Matthias

[studiomprd]

" Live by the sword, die by the sword.... "

well, yes, but don't get into a sword fight if you don't know how to handle the sword you are going to use!

from my reading of this, the wireless probably was not set up properly, reminiscent of the arrow/archer discussions...

Wireless booming is another one of the technological advances that has become a part of the current 'production sound landscape' for many of us.  Quality arrows, properly used by a skilled archer result in excellent results, and as I've often noted: unless you know what make and model (equipment) was used, you cannot tell by the finished product; there have been plenty of wireless booms used in nominated shows, and that wasn't a factor in the voters decisions! Besides: and Ma and Pa Kettle, watching the show in CowDung KY, don't know the difference, and they don't care.

[Philip Perkins]

I don't think anyone's under a bus.  That mixer had a bad day or a bad scene, that's all, it happens to all of us  He'll probably be a little more careful about monitoring his wireless boom rigs.  No one said anything about that guy's experience, which I know nothing about.  Wireless boom can be exactly the sort of "sword" that can help a sound crew AVOID being told to wire everyone, by being faster on their feet, keeping the boom line out of the way of everyone, and allowing the boom op to be free to help with other sound tasks. 

Philip Perkins 

[Chris R]

It turned out that the production mixer whose tracks the OP (on Gearslutz, an editor) was complaining about was a friend of his and they discussed the issue.  The situation on set was pretty much what I surmised--small sound crew, pushed for speed, loud set so the compander artifacts are hard if not impossible for the mixer to hear.  But I bet that guy tries little harder after all that.....right, Sherlock? 

Philip Perkins

I was actually talking to Jeff about his situation that I quoted,

but its all good.

[soundtrane]

If we cannot EARN five minutes on the set for laying out a cable to a boom mic held by a boom operator, we are worth nothing. I say EARN because it seems like we have to earn it, rather than have it naturally. If there is any fault - it is ours - if we refused to work in a situation that did not give one this FIVE minutes and then are replaced by someone else who wires up actors and puts them on miltitrack, then we are BITTEN BY OUR OWN KIND.

I dont know a remedy to this kind of situation, if it is what exists. Out here the situation is worse, so I will not bring it in to a discussion here that is dealing with easier-to-handle-problems.

-vin

[Zack]

Call me a dinosaur, but for years sound has travelled by cable to a mixing panel, and now all of a sudden the sound crew has become slow and ineffective and according to Mr. Sharman that's due to the current state of the industry.

RVD

Kind of reminds me of telephones to cell phones.  It seems to be in our nature to go faster, faster, easier, easier, and just sacrifice quality lol. 

[Jon Ailetcher]

Ok, I guess it's my turn here.  I have been using wireless boom exclusively for about 7 years now.  I have never thought of myself as someone that compromises quality.  I have just moved forward with technology.  I feel that the equipment can stand on it's own if it's set up properly.  I have NEVER had one producer, editor or even re recording mixer call and ask if I was using a wireless boom in my tracks.  I do however stay in constant contact with all of them to make they are getting what they need.  When I did season 4 of Weeds, I used 2 wireless booms 100% of the time.  That season garnered me an Emmy award for Sound.

As for the dinosaur in the group that doesn't agree with the method I use,  Well I don't agree with yours either. Maybe it's time to get out of the prehistoric times and move forward with the technology that's being offered.

I'm sorry if this seems a little angered but some of the comments about quality have really hit hard with me.

Jon Ailetcher

[studiomprd]

" When I did season 4 of Weeds, I used 2 wireless booms 100% of the time.  That season garnered me an Emmy award for Sound.  "

and that was neither the first time, nor the last time...

" there have been plenty of wireless booms used in nominated shows, and that wasn't a factor in the voters decisions!  "

sooo:  is it the arrows??

I don't think so!

[soundtrane]

Before I got a Lectro UH400 buttplug, I did two features in which I used a Lectro UM400 with a Denecke 48V PS connected to the boom mic in some situations. I never had a problem with either the UM400 setup or the buttplug...

Of course, I don't go wireless boom ALL the time. But if the situation demands too complex cable laying and cable control, or if the situation is totally crazy (real location busy street shoots, etc), I will not hesitate to use the buttplug and go wireless.

I would not mind checking out a Zaxcom wireless boom system - if i had access to it here in India. Having said this, under the current work scenario, it is going to take a really long and good gig for me to think of buying anything serious. Until then, I am ok with what I have and all of it really works out well under the conditions out here - heat, dust, noise, etc.

Jon - what have you used in the past and what do you currently use for your wireless booming?

-vin

[studiomprd]

Vin,  as you went between wireless booms and hardwired booms, did anyone, and I mean anyone, ever call you on it in any way?? any comments at all?? anyone besides you and your crew ever notice any difference??

none??

thought so,...

[Jon Ailetcher]

Vin,

I have always used Lectrosonics wireless.  I attach a Um400 to a Denecke power supply that my boom operators wear on their belts.

[studiomprd]

"The West Wing", multiple nominations was all wireless, all Lectro! (WB supplied gear, incl Lectro IFB)

[gabi]

anyone besides you and your crew ever notice any difference??

Here is an audio sample recorded with two booms, one was a hardwire and the other was wireless. Channel 1 has a little bit of camera noise because the actor was too close to the camera.  Can you tell the difference?

Gabi

sample.mp3

[Jeff Wexler]

Here is an audio sample recorded on two booms, one was a hardwire and the other was wireless. Channel 1 has a little bit of camera noise because the actor was too close to the camera.  Can you tell the difference?

Gabi

Yes, I can tell a difference but it is impossible to figure out why they sound different other than the obvious --- different people, different voices, different position.

This whole discussion has sort of veered off the original core discussion. If I can recap and summarize from the original topic, it evolved from discussions of problems with certain scenes that were recorded with wireless boom (level-gain problems, compander pumping, limited dynamic range, etc.). I think we can all agree that it is often very difficult to discover why one thing sounds better than another and to attribute that to any specific piece of hear or technique. What we also know is that very good sound can be produced by such a wide variety of gear and techniques and if you are able, as an individual sound person, to get these good results, however they are achieved, you should have no fear at continuing to use these methods. This echoes the whole  "it's the archer not the arrows" and other such concepts.

The last thing I will say about "Wireless vs Hardline to boom" (the topic title) is that even if there is some penalty to using wireless boom, it has been shown quite clearly that if the wireless setup allows the boom operator to get the microphone to the best place (and a hardwired setup might not have) then the wireless setup is definitely the preferred method.

[minister]

Here is an audio sample recorded on two booms, one was a hardwire and the other was wireless. Channel 1 has a little bit of camera noise because the actor was too close to the camera.  Can you tell the difference?

Gabi

I listened quickly, but there is a difference in quality between the left and right.  I hear more detail in the mids, upper mids and high-end on the right.  The left sounds muddier, and a little more closed.  However, the difference could be attributable to the actors voices, could be placement, could be orientation in the room.  Same mics I assume?  (If not, that is another big factor)

I'd say that the wireless is on the left and the wired is on the right.