Car Shot A Frame

[Marco Lopez]

Hey guys,

how's it going? I need your help on this one. I'm in a low bugdet movie that includes car shots on A Frame combined with quiet talkers and open windows. Yippee ki yay!!! I said to the director my concerns and nothing changed except from the fact that the actors talk a bit higher. What I also do is record wild tracks. For this one i started using CCM 41's but the background noise (exterior and specially interior) was too high through these mics that I eliminate them. I ended up using only lavs VT500. So, based on your experience how do you deal with situations like these in order to get good tracks?

Best regards,

Marco

[BVS]

Try a hair rig if you can...closer to the sound source.....hair is quite a good windshield too...if they have any....and head turns are no problem...nor any clothing issues.

BVS

[Marco Lopez]

Thanks BVS, I'll try that. I was also thinking of using blankets on the floor, in order to minimize the noise inside the car. Is it effective?

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

The open windows are your biggest concern.  I don't believe blankets on the floor will do anything.  Outside traffic and rattles are the dragons to slay.  Sounds like lavs are the mic to use.

[Marco Lopez]

There's a lot of wheels noise on the road, either if its dirt or asphalt.

[Jan McL]

Oh, this is one thing I would add to the thread titled (?) "I Hate to Mix": open windows during driving shots. This happens all the time. ALL the time. Thankfully, we are usually able to record plenty of tone during driving shots, and I think that helps post save what seem like hopeless sound situations.

Ken's right: Lavs on the quiet talkers in the open-windowed car is the absolute correct solution. In addition, I'd be tempted to plant another mic or two overhead not particularly for the mix except maybe for 'air', and routed to iso tracks, just in case of clothing noise and for sync 'tone'.

Was surprised recently when a post supervisor said in passing that they almost always ADR driving shots. Wonder if that's true. Certainly doesn't seem to have been true in my experience.

Fact is, the background noise is probably a lot less awful than you imagine it to be.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to conversate with post and ask them if they think it's OK.

-- Jan

[Marco Lopez]

Ken's right: Lavs on the quiet talkers in the open-windowed car is the absolute correct solution. In addition, I'd be tempted to plant another mic or two overhead not particularly for the mix except maybe for 'air', and routed to iso tracks, just in case of clothing noise and for sync 'tone'.

-- Jan

Use lavaliers it's the only way to go, as I see it. I used 2 other plant mics but the backround noise was horrible and it's level as high as the dialogue.

[studiomprd]

" I said to the director my concerns and nothing changed  "

Amateur, right?

OK, I'm going to tackle the philosophical part of this thread: Movie Making is problem solving! this director does not get that, and I'll bet there is this "I am an Artist" thing involved... that goes with "that is how I want it, so deal with it"; of course that is the movie maker's option, but remember it is the "Motion Picture Arts and Sciences", and if the sciences are not considered, then the results will usually reflect that, and the "art" part will suffer.  If one is working on an "A budget" (or even "B budget") project, then production problems like this can be, and will be, dealt with either right away, on the set, or later, in post -and at some cost.  The professionals understand that we are trying to make their movie as good as it can be, and carefully consider our advice. Problem is that the "D list" productions (and lower!) are the ones that need to be most concerned with the repercussions, but aren't.  The amateur, wanna bee's think they know it all and can reinvent the wheel.  In those cases we do our best, and they reap what they sow, frequently in spite of our best intentions to help them make their movie better.

Someone else (another participant on this forum) once pointed out: 'If you make it better for sound, you usually also make it better for picture!'

you may now resume your technical discussion...

[Christian Holm]

Well said Senator!

The more u understand and see these things the risk of getting bitter is big!

And of I go to the "I hate to mix..." topic

//Christian

[Marc Wielage]

You know, I was watching 24 the other day and thinking about how much terrific "poor man's process" shots that DP Rodney Charters did for that show. Lotta stuff shot in cars against projection screens, and it looks fantastic. They knew how to light it, how to take the curse off it -- and all the sound is very good (as you'd expect, being in studio).

I worked on a little sci-fi indie that just came out this month, Eyeborgs, and they also used rear screen process for as many of their car shots as possible. The director told me it solved the problem of having to get street permits and kill traffic to five or six blocks, plus it gave them better control of the shots and much better sound. So maybe it's a viable alternative in some cases.

--Marc W.

[RPSharman]

Properly planned, non-driving, process work can make things better for EVERYONE.

But I think what we are probably talking about here are two typical intances, "free-driving" car work and good old process trailer or towing work.

Windows are almost always open because the DP wants to be able to shoot overs from the side.  It we close the on-camera window (provided it matches any preciously shot exterior drive-bys), we have the problem of that character's ambiance mismatching when the reverse over is cheated through the open window.  If the camera is in the car, it typically needs the physical room and needs to poke out the open window off camera (that window can often be draped with a furni-pad).

Since I like to plan the whole scene before shooting, I try to find out what the window situation is for the STORY, and then work with the DP to establish a plan to cover the scene in a way that works best for everyone.

The windows are usually open, in my experience, so I use lavs in the headliners, if I can get them close enough to the actors, or otherwise put the mics on the actors themselves.  While a "real" plant mic can sound better in perfect circumstances, I find that the new "handheld" look (and use of zoom lenses) can make mic placement almost impossible.  And good luck keeping low-planted mics from being nudged by the actors at any moment.

As previously mentioned, I always ask for several opportunities to get some matching road noise, usually when the trailer is on its way back to one.

Robert

[Jan McL]

" I said to the director my concerns and nothing changed  "

Amateur, right?

[snip]

now resume your technical discussion...

I gotta ask what even an experienced director under such circumstances might have done at the last minute. Reschedule elsewhere? Were that a possibility, I would argue that the sound mixer should present that as an alternative at the same time the 'this-road-is-bad-for-sound' news is delivered.

Having already had conversations with DP, locations, et. al., the mixer says to the director "We are having issues on this gravel road during this wide shot, but when we get into overs, there's a well-paved road a block over that would give you the same background & lighting, with the advantage of good sound. Everybody's on board. Your choice."

Relative to process work, even that brings its own issues when the DP insists on a mole fan through the open windows to blow the actors' hair. Sigh. Compromise.

-- Jan

-- Jan

[BVS]

I have heard of a few plastic surrounds being made here that cover the window with room for the lens of the camera to poke through..seals around the window frame of the car...a heavy material is the only thing touching the lens similar to an autocue set up.

BVS

[Marco Lopez]

Hey guys thanks for your replies. Big help as always. I'm stuck with this A Frame system and I have to compromise sound in order to get what the DP and director wants in picture.  At preproduction there was a "plan B" of using green screen, with which I  was very happy and pleased to hear about it, but unfortunately never happened. Thinking about it, it would easier to go with the green screen cause everything is controlled, and even cheaper, I think. So in conclusion in situations like these( please correct me if I'm wrong) its difficult to use boom mics.

Best regards,

Marco

[RPSharman]

So in conclusion in situations like these( please correct me if I'm wrong) its difficult to use boom mics.

Best regards,

Marco

Difficult, yes, but not impossible.  On a film last year, we had a horrible old car with 4 actors going down a bumpy and rocky road.  We tried a few things, but eventually the best was a boom through the hole cut in the roof for camera.  Riggers had welded a safety cage to the roof for the 1st AC for when the camera was in the car, and for both the operator and AC when they were shooting through the hole.  My boom operator was up there too, but ONLY because he felt safe (or safe enough, I suppose) and the sound was MUCH better than the plants we had first tried.  It was a very slow drive.

Robert

[studiomprd]

"I gotta ask what even an experienced director under such circumstances might have done  "

what you said!

taken the technical advice of the technical crew

[Marco Lopez]

On a film last year, we had a horrible old car with 4 actors going down a bumpy and rocky road.  Robert

Was the car on a platform? Thanks Robert!

[RPSharman]

Was the car on a platform? Thanks Robert!

For the first part of the drive it was free driven very slowly, then when the car came "under attack" it became process trailer and stunts, and then later cameras on the ground. By then it was all gunfire and no scripted dialog.

Robert