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Timecode slate: (A) Useful, or (B) Just for show?


Bob K

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For news, documentary, corporate, reality, etc., I contend that timecode slates are

superfluous.  Video cameras record 24/48 audio, and NLEs have waveform sync for backup files.  Yet I still see timecode slates used, even for one-camera, one-subject interviews.  Thoughts?
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Timecode slates are useful for the following resons

 

1) syncing my mult camera shoots that don't have timecode input like FS7, GoPros, mirroless cams, new Arri and Red camers with beta software that screw up TC, etc. A TC slate is essential for syncing GoPros. Yes I can simply  trigger a flash unit or send a tone beep to connected cameras but an actual TC slate is far more professional and has written info on the slate pertaining to the scene.

 

2) when I edit the multi cam timeline it is far easier to align the cameras and sound sources when a TC slate is used vs fiddling with the waveforms. Plus simply using camera mics as a sync source can present errors if the cameras are far apart. Light and sound travel at different speeds.

 

3) because of a $1,000 investment about 20 years ago, my Denecke TCS has earned me at least ten times that cost in rental. In that time I have had to have it serviced only once.

 

For single camera shoots when the sound mixer/recorder is connected to the camera a TC slate is less essential.

 

I have used the Tenecle TC slate phone app. It is good for run and gun work with one or two cameras.

 

My two cents.

Kent

Jeez, I misspelled reasons, lol

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When I said "video cameras record 24/48 audio," I thought it would be clear that 24/48 is broadcast standard audio quality.  So (1) cameras don't need "timecode inputs," they need audio inputs.  And all the cameras you list, Sony FS7 M1, mirrorless, etc. (except I suppose GoPros) have audio inputs.  The cameras record the audio the soundman sends.

And (2), when the camera files are ingested, the video and audio is already in sync.  (Of course, it's helpful if the cameras are all running the same timecode.)  If backup files are needed for any reason, NLE waveform sync is pretty much instantaneous, and (I'm told) the most accurate.  No "fiddling" required.

As to (3), yes I get that.

 

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It depends,  I work a ton of network multi cam shoots. The editors love smart slates to sync up the cameras. Especially if all of the video and audio footage is being sent to them via Live View. Live View can not send tc . The smart slate helps get them in the ball park to sync the 4-5 cams being used. If the cameraman is taking all of the footage and audio back to base or sending the drives to broadcast hq, they still like the smart slate for the non tc capable cameras. On the rare occasions that they have the time to sweeten the audio for interviews, they will bring in the .wav files from my recorder, otherwise the cam mix is what they use most of the time. Or if one of the cams had an rf hit. Half the time the cameraman does not monitor the camera audio even when wireless.  True, a lot of NLE software can sync up multi cam shoots with ease, the smart slate just offers redundancy, and in our business redundancy is good. Also profitable. 

I do agree somewhat, with single camera shoots. Usually I’m sending tc to it anyway via a sync box as a reinforcement. 

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35 minutes ago, nickreich said:

Also very useful to have the TC Slate as a 'third party arbiter' to prove it was the Camera that drifted or was offset by 2 frames - not the Sound Recorder! Otherwise Editorial will always blame Sound.

That is an awesome comment!  And SO true.

 

D.

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I think the last three comments miss the essential point that video cameras record 24/48 audio in a single system.  That's broadcast-quality audio.  There's no need for double-system sound, and therefor no need to sync two systems (camera and sound recorder).  It also means there's nothing to "drift."

Edward, I've also done a ton of network live shots, first uplinking via sat trucks, and more recently with LiveView.  Of course, the camera's SDI out has both picture and sound, in sync.  So there are no separate sound tracks.  I've never done 4-5 cameras, as you mention, but I would think that even then, once the camera files are ingested into an NLE, the waveform sync feature is faster and more accurate than TC numbers on a smart slate.

I take your point about cameramen who don't monitor audio.  That can happen (and just about anything else).  But, even in the event of an RF hit, when an editor needs to take the audio from another track, it' faster to use the NLE's tools than timecode slate numbers.  Redundant?  OK, it is that.  Profit?  Yes, but that's not what motivates me.

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8 hours ago, Bob K said:

thought it would be clear that 24/48 is broadcast standard audio quality. 

Sure, but just because it says it records 24/48, that’s no guarantee of “quality”. Depends on what camera we’re talking about. Meaning a noisy camera input recorded at whatever file format will still be noisy. Also, the camera is a device that I have no control over. The operator may change some settings, or accidentally bump the level control(s), unplug a cable etc. And even if they are “monitoring”, they are probably not focusing on sound, or even want to, since they are busy doing their job making sure the picture is good.

 

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Johnny, what cameras have you had a bad experience with?  I've found that even inexpensive DSLR style cameras record excellent sound.  The "operator" issues certainly can be an issue.  (Don't get me started.)  But I always record backup audio separately, and that can be synced in the NLE.  No timecode slate needed.

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Bob K,

You may have formed an opinion and are now seeking support for that opinon from others. I think you can see that many of us prefer to use a TC slate outside of being able to charge for it's use.

 

It just works and has many benefits for split system filming. I am sending a dirty mix to the camera via wireless or lavs on one channel and booms on a second channel (or lav 1 left, lav 2 right) when tethered to cameras.

 

What the cameras DON'T get is all my seperate IOS tracks for the 6 lavs and two booms I have roaming the set.

 

Kent

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Well the time code slate is a tool, and tools have different applications. This tool does not seem to fit your workflow or your general needs. 
there are plenty of people who actually use them and it works for them. 

And the same may be true for post. The same material may be edited by a few different people, and they might all have different workflows and needs. A TC slate provides a pretty fool proof way to sync different devices. There might be an old film camera (dunno why but hey you never know) mixed with gopros and/or Alexas or other cameras with or without sound. 

 

Point is: you do you and don’t use a tc slate if you don’t want to, but people have been and are using it because they like that way of working, and it's proven effective over decades. 
 

I work in the radio and we have a software for editing which is designed for people who used to edit tape, and it’s excruciatingly slow and old-timey in its features. And there are plenty of people wanting it gone, and there are plenty of softwares that could do exactly what this software does but better and faster and cheaper, but it’s too rooted in the ecosystem on this company to change now. It would take years to train people to a new software again. 

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on a funnier note, I’ve had sit downs where the production doesn’t want to hire the slate, but when we get to filming, it is sometimes requested by producer or director to make the CEO or whomever that is ‘important’ hire it without hesitation to make the person feel important. it’s part of the show i guess lol

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PMC, yes, but that's why I started my inquiry by saying "For news, documentary, corporate, reality, etc..."  My portable kit has 4 channels, while yours has 8.  Also, I'm mixing and booming, while you have a crew.  You're doing something I've never done.  It's more like what I imagine is routine in L.A. and NY studios.  I'm surprised there is that kind of production in Iowa.

Olle, thanks for that perspective.  Yes, I'm aware that technology is always changing, and some are early adopters while others like to stand pat.  I myself made the transition from film to video, long ago. 

 

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Ah yes, well this is of course all depending on the job at hand. Documentary etc - there is simply no way to slate anything while running around. For this; TC sync box on camera(s) that can take it.

I did some “corporate” style interviews lately that were shot on 2x DSLR type cameras. 3.5mm inputs and not really practical to mount anything on = (in my view) TC Slate and the internal camera mics on for reference. It would have worked with a good ol’ “dumb slate”, too of course. (Nothing dumb about them!).

Also, things like the original Alexa Mini, where you can of course get line level in with the right cable or an A-box - BUT - it doesn’t have a headphone output, so there is no way to monitor what the camera is getting.

 

There are different ways of getting things done, and only you can decide what is the right way for you.

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Bob K,

 

My portable kit has 12 channels. I work all over North Ametica but in Iowa specifically, I have mixed up to 8 wireless lavs and 2 booms with my SD 664 (6 mic level inputs and 6 line level inputs) strapped to my chest. 4 cameras with wireless hops and Denecke TC boxes and half a dozen Comteks. I even strap my TC slate to the front of my bag so the non-TC cameras can simply point at me briefly and get a TC sync from the constant display. (a trick I learned from NFL Films).

 

All this for scripted reality shows like  restaurant makeovers, team vehicle rebuilds, sports, docu-drama shoots with two active sets at the same time, etc. In Iowa I am lucky to get the budget for a boom op on these gigs. Pretty ridiculous. But I have worked on a lot of pilot shows this way.

 

On commercials and corporate gigs I am typically a one man band even on 5-lav and 1-boom shoots.

 

Just to make booming tougher, it seems like the only category of production that is shooting with one camera these days is commercials. 

 

Kent

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Kent,

 

I work the same in Omaha, NE. Trying to get a second is like blood from a turnip. I like the slate in the belief that just maybe it would help an editor out incase something were to go wrong. It helps tie all the parts together. Smaller markets mean you are doing more types of jobs than a larger market where the people you work with are use to how you work and they share your name with the same type of productions and you may never see a large scene format.

 

Scott

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Not sure if this was mentioned, but some editors even on small single cam shoots want the visual information of the slate because they deal with a lot of footage - just went thru this recently where slate could seem overkill, but was more than just a clap

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Kent,

 

You've mixed as many as ten mics for reality shows?  With a portable kit?  That sounds nightmarish.  Not sure what you mean by "scripted reality."  I've done lots of reality, and there are field producers who direct the action to some degree, but no scripted dialogue.  For more than four subjects we typically have two cameras, and two soundmen.  The sound guys split the subjects, and the two cameras cover the action from two perspectives.  If we jam sync the cameras, it's all in sync.  That makes things go smoothly, and the editor gets everything he needs. 

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Bob K. Seems to me that you started this discussion with an already formed opinion and you are challenging those of us that use smart slates in corporate or news style shoots to justify why we do. You always reply “ I think that NLE can sync faster without a smart slate. Is that just your opinion? Or do you yourself  have personal experience editing or have talked to an editor who cuts for news to listen to what their professional experience has taught them? I did in fact understand your statement regarding 24/48 in camera, but I hate to inform you, several network producers and story cutters have thanked me for the.wav backups and that I provided a smart slate. You say profit does not motivate you? So you give your gear away for the sake of passion? This is a business which requires substantial up front costs along with knowledge that is acquired by doing. With gear going up as well as expectations we need to charge appropriately .  If I can make a few extra bucks with my smart slate and Producers and more importantly the business mgrs. at the networks approve of the expense, hell yes I’m going to charge!

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I use a TC slate when asked to because it is very useful in post,  no matter what sort of shoot it is.  It makes a permanent visible record at the head or tail of a shot of what the shot was, when it was shot, by who, for what production, and the system TC.  On projects of any type, including those the OP mentioned, there is the potential for a great deal of confusion in post when footage from many sources, locations and dates need to be reviewed quickly.   If your people don't want to use slates then don't use them.  I don't actually care if the people I work for use my slates or not, not using them is actually easier for me.  But mostly they DO want them, so go figure.  The OP is also very sure that since cameras can record "24/48" audio that that makes the sound they record "broadcast quality".  What I want to record is "really great quality" sound--that's why I get hired, not to record least common denominator average quality sound.  I would strongly recommend doing a comparison listen between audio recorded on a high quality current professional sound recorder with excellent preamps and ADC and the recordings from the audio electronics in cameras.   Those electronics are generally  compromised by both their design and by their proximity to noise and distortion-inducing picture electronics within the camera body.  Meanwhile, how is that audio getting to that camera?  On a wireless?  On a long  cable?  A well- thought-out shoot allows freedom of movement by sound and camera people, and that we accomplish by recording audio and video on separate unattached devices, with ref. audio (maybe NOT "broadcast quality") sent to the camera, TC jammed between all devices and maybe even that old TC slate to make life easier for the posties.

 

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Bob K,

 

Please don't take our comments about sound recording and business methods as condescending or snarky (not that you have, just saying). You asked and we answered. Take our years of experience and recommendations as you will.

 

As for filling up my 12 channel mixer inputs on occasion in a bag rig, yes it happens. I like it and I hate it both. I like all the rental I am getting but I hate that there are compromises and I tell the producer that. I can't properly mix all those channels with several different conversations going on at the same time while around my neck. But when the producer says I want lavs on everyone I use all 8 wireless lavs I own plus a boom and a plant mic or two. Sometimes on these reality shows the producer will wear a lav and I'll send that channel to the camera hops for direction to cam ops rather than a two-way.

 

Scripted reality shows are shows that have a known structure going into it. The producer and participants already know the talking points. They already know we are shooting coverage of the daughter and mother always bickering about the menu, the FOH hostess coping with the wait staff, the dad arguing with the cooks about the smelly fish, etc. And everyone is wearing a mic because it is a working restaurant and all this action plays out at the same time. It is hectic, chaotic, but can be fun as long as mom stops taking her mic off because she doesn't want to do this anymore. Another story.

 

Kent

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edward,
 

Yes, I edited video for many years, and film before that.  And, yes I've discussed waveform sync with editors who work with NLEs everyday.  None have told me anything except that waveform sync is very fast and works very well.
 

So, knowing that much, and also knowing there's always more I don't know, I came to a forum of professional sound mixers to ask for opinions and start a conversation.
 

As to backup files, I'm sure I've said this already, I always record backup files.  It would be foolish not to.  In my experience they've saved the day a few times.  But I inquired about time code slates, not backup files.
 

As to charges, I think people should charge as they see fit.  I don't criticize anyone for that.  But again, I asked are TC slates "useful."  Some of the answers have stretched the definition of that word beyond what I intended.  That's fine.  I'm getting the perspectives I sought.

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Phillip,
 

I worked in news during the Betacam SP videotape era.  The sound was recorded on the camera tapes, and we used Dolby NR to minimize the noise.  (We also recorded consumer-grade audio cassettes that went directly to a transcription house.)  All that camera sound was broadcast on network news programs, coast to coast.
 

As to "how is that audio getting to that camera?  On a wireless?"  Yes, on wireless, just as the audio gets from the mics to the mixer.

 

 

 

Kent,
 

Thanks for that additional info.  The "reality" sounds much like shows I've done, except with fewer mics, and perhaps an additional soundman.  I'm glad it's you doing all that you describe, and not me.  We could probably start a whole new thread on the topic of "what the producer wants."

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