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Cheap M/S: AT BP 4029 Versus Sony ECM 680S


Derek H

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Hi,

I know this topic has been beaten up on previous posts, but nowhere on this board is any mention of the Sony 680S (maybe because it's a relatively new model).  Every once and awhile I get the itch to add an MS mic to my kit for the documentary stuff but never so eager to drop $2k+ for the css5, neumann, or dual mic setups.

These two, the Audio Technica BP4029 and the Sony ECM 680S, have near identical feature sets and are priced to be competitive to each other.  Hoping someone here has used one or both of these models enough to have developed some feedback regarding their usefulness for sub-$1000 stereo recording.

Differences in specs I have noticed:

- Sony is about 30mm longer

- Sony can only output coded LR or Mono signals.. no pure M/S

- Sony is stated to be an electret condenser

- AT is stated to be a "Fixed-Charged Back Plate Permanently Polarized Condenser" - my guess is that this is tech jargon meaning electret condenser..

- AT offers wide and narrow matrix output as well as non-matrixed M/S.

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While the Oktava setup would be similar in price to one of these single point mics I think for ease of use on location I've decided to go for a single point mic.  Makes mounting and wind protection compatible with my current mics. 

As for the emesser I don't usually use a full zeppelin and I imagine trying to mount an emesser on a mic using a rycote softie would be some sort of compromise or another..

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  • 5 months later...

Bump for curiosities sake..  I still haven't made a purchase but wondering if anyone else has any more user feedback.  Oleg, you mention it being fine for urban environments.. can I take that to mean the self noise wouldn't be sufficient for quiet ambient recording?

Thanks,

DH

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  • 2 months later...

I owned the AT a couple of years back, it was great value back then but think the price has increased significantly.

I also had a used 191 which is unquestionably a great sounding mic, but somewhat quaint connectors and a relatively bulky external matrixer are its downsides (I ended up having to sell it to keep something else afloat - held it's value pretty well).

Currently I got a 418-S at a bargain price. To my ear it's more cinematic sounding than the AT (I have been conditioned by the 416 throughout the '70s no doubt) and yes the side capsules are a little noisy but generally so are the environments I am recording.

The AT is also pretty light IIRC, the 191 and 418 not so much.

Personally I am addicted to M/S in a convenient form factor and like all addicts cannot not be reasoned with.

Now, will FCPX deal with M/S (the 191 has been around since 1989, Blumlein Pair theory since the 1930s) - FCP7 can't even do a phase reversal.

Check out http://www.soundhack.com/freeware.php +matrix AU/VST - can go to and from M-S to L-R.

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I have been very happy with my BP4029 and have consistently been very pleased with the results - great value for money and very versatile. I would not use it for spatially wide imaging though, if I was right on top of the action and the sound source crosses left to right through 180 degrees say, it gives spatially confused results which is only to be expected given its a rifle mic with figure of 8.

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you can use it as adittional shotgun , camera mic or any other mono aplication - one of the best bang for the buck .

and you can make 40-50 bucks each time you rent it out  with " non rycote " zepp and suspension .excellent investment

Which mic are you talking about? The BP4029 or the 680s? ... or either?

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Thanks everyone for the response here, glad to see this thread revived a bit.

@john paul:  no I have not pulled the trigger on an ms mic yet but I'm strongly leaning towards the bp4029 because of it's form factor and cost.  I rarely if ever get asked for stereo on anything but have been in many situations where I would have loved having one to add some depth to the production track.  My thinking is maybe if I have it available and tested then I can convince production or post sound to push for it in the field.

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(...)

, will FCPX deal with M/S (the 191 has been around since 1989, Blumlein Pair theory since the 1930s) - FCP7 can't even do a phase reversal.

(...)

I've been using MS (manly for docus) for many years. I use Schoeps CCM (CCM8 and CCM41 or CCM5)

Would like to have a 1 body MS mic but find the 418 too noisy and the CSS5 too heavy and weird to mount in a standard Rycote suspesion

(yes, the CSS5 is not officially MS and it's output is LR, but I'm "almost sure" :) it's approach is MS-based given it's shape and size... I mean there's sides pickup and front pickup, even if the front pickup is made out of more than one diaphragm. I'd like to dematrix it's output to confirm my suspects)

Anyway, using a shotgun for the M channel is not always advisable (too abrupt center to sides imaging), only for difficult dialog pickup where the sides are still "target" or of any interest.

I mean when I use MS, the surrounding sound "can" also be the target, so in most occasions I can use a CCM41 or wider for M. But in some situations I miss the isolation and reach of a CS3 for M to improve inteligibility while still recording the rest of the soundscape, hence the use of MS...

I still don't understand why FCP don't support MS. I know most USA mixers don't like it except for FX but in Europe is widely used for docus and some films.

I would also like to see support within WaveAgent, so you can listen to dematrixed MS pairs of channels when inspecting files.

So I would like to see full support of MS in all the main audio and video editing software.

The Deva has a very elegant way of dealing with MS (and B-format!) :

You can decode MS anywhere with extreme simplicity: at the input (to record dematrixed to LR), to the headphones, to the outputs... You simply send M and S to two channels but invert the phase of the S going to the R channel. Impossible to do in a simpler and more elegant way. This way you can matrix, dematrix, rematrix any moment. No need to "declare an MS pair" If you need to use the suspension upside-down you just invert the phase of the other (going to L) S copy!

They (Zaxcom) just understood what's MS about and implemented it. It would be so easy for any audio or video edit software to implement! I just can't get why they don't...!

They just need to implement phase inversion!!!! Please!!!!!

Ahem, back to the original question and based on specs and experience with other Sony and AT mics, I'd go with the AT BP4029 or find a Sanken CSS5 second hand...

Or use a good condenser M mic (shotgun or not) plus an Ambient Emesser (new version) for S; so the S mic will be still an electret but your M will be better. I think this can be a great alternative for maybe a bit more than the AT...

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  • 3 weeks later...

Anyone ever use the 4029 in LR stereo mode for ambience/FX? Is it noisy in that situation? It seems like a lot of the mics have noise on the S capsules, so I hope LR mode is not total crap.

My current project told me post would need LR stereo, not MS. If that is possibly a common situation, then the switchable 4029 makes sense. LR, MS, mono etc.

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  • 4 weeks later...

So I found a used BP4029 for a really good price and grabbed it. So far I have only really used it on the LR settings. Most of what I am doing is capturing urban sounds (traffic etc), so I have not been in a situation to really hear it in a quite environment. So far I'm really happy with it. Sounds a lot better than production's no budget solution of using a Zoom H4n for ambience.

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JP, Glad to hear you're happy with it so far.  I decided to wait until I really need one.. the show I'm on now moves too fast to switch mics on the move.  Also when I suggested it to production and post they all just shrugged..

Would love to hear another report back after you're had some more time with it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on the forum, and am happy to be here ! I have a bp4029 on the way to me tomorrow. Hope to do some ambient nature recording with it this weekend with a SD702t. Decided to go with it because of price point and fits inside my pre-existing number 4 rycote kit. Will report back my thoughts and post some raw recording samples on sound cloud.

Michael

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  • 6 months later...

no apologies needed...

the cheap toy recorders are what they are, and are useful for some stuff; all in all I'd rate them a pretty good value. My students, among many, use them all the time, and I have yet to hear them complain about them or say their movie would have been better if they used a Zaxcom. (I have heard them say their movie would have been better if they shot it on a RED! :-* ).

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