live Working on building a low-visibility microphone system for live recording

[Koyama]

Firstly, these are the locations where the live concerts and recording jobs would take place:

 

#1

 

#2

 

#3

 

As you can see, if we were to arrange the main microphones in the middle of the concert hall, this would detract from the perception of the audience.

 

However, apparently, I can't punch holes in the walls of these rooms for microphone hookups, which would result in a huge claim for money and my expulsion from school

 

So, my current idea is to use a pair of very tall microphone stands (such as K&M 20811), place them at the very edge of the venue, and then use a wire and suspend the microphones in the air.

 

I probably need to modify a microphone cage based on the stereo bar I have now for easy installation on the wires. And need a pair of pulleys to transfer the wire onto the high stands (somehow looks like a fishing pole?), also the Microphone cables may need to tied with the wires.

 

Has anyone here used a similar approach? What issues should I be aware of when using a similar approach? I would greatly appreciate any advice you can offer!

 

Sincerely,

Koyama_P

 

[Dalton Patterson]

Suspend monofilament lines from the ceiling with tiny robust i-hooks. Simply adjust your microphones to proper height. Use tan/white 300’ pair of Xlr and it will all but disappear. Getting to the ceiling will be tricky. IMHO when I see this rig in the field I don’t see the mics right away, then they stand out to me and I notice them, but not right away. 

Figure out your best way to suspend the mic, cage, xlr, etc at your own pace in the comfort of home. 

See if maintenance/utility has one of these laying around in the back parking lot somewhere. 

[Rick Reineke]

Boundary mics at the edge or the stage are unobtrusive and can sound good. Cables can be run up against the walls in the isles. I have a pair of Sanken CUB-01 miniature boundary microphones that sounded pretty good for a quick choir recording.  Crown PZMs are popular boundary mics, but are generally larger than the Sanken but are still unobtrusive .

[OB1]

What type of microphone are you planning to use?

Do you have access to miniatures (i.e. DPA 4023s, CMC641,etc)?

[Wandering Ear]

I would opt for suspending from the ceiling as long as you can arrange it. A setup with stands will always be more visually intrusive. 
DPA makes a version of the 4098 specifically meant for hanging in this type of situation and is quite non intrusive. I think it’s the 4098H

 

 

[edward chick]

Check out what houses of worship use. Looks like small lav type mics suspended from ceiling over choir. 

[tourtelot]

Okay, location classical music recording is a whole 'nother "thing".  It is all I do any more.  I tend to be a "minimal mic guy" which means most of the music I record is captured on 2-4 really good mics.  Not BLMs, not lavs, not clip-ons.  First tier mics placed in the proper position.  Full orchestra, small ensembles, choruses and choirs, opera.

 

I almost always use a stand and rarely brook any discussion about where that stand will go.  There are some talks with video from time to time but once it is explained to the director of the group that there is a reason for the stand to be where it goes, I almost always get "my way".

 

Flying mic pairs overhead is alway a good choice if you, the audio engineer, has the time and the facility to do it.  I do it in a few halls to good effect.  However, it takes longer and, thus, costs more.  A lot of my jobs are load-in at 5:30 for a 7:30 performance, out by 10.  A stand is the only practical way to get my mics in the correct place.  Most of my clients know this and have no issues.

 

Because of live-streaming that came about during the pandemic, there is more video on these jobs than in years past and sometimes, there is nothing that will satisfy the client other than multi-mic'ing.  Almost never sounds as good but the stage "looks" cleaner.  And I make money on set up time and mic rentals.  But I like the sound of fewer mics.

 

I have done a few jobs recently where I have "flown" the main pair on an 18' boom mounted on a heavy-duty stand.  Most on this forum will know what I mean.  I will put up "collette-style" heads to keep the weight down but it opens up the front of the stage for sight lines.  This works great on small ensembles but remember, the group needs to fit on a 28' wide "stage" and also that the stand will always be in someone's eye-line unless it come over from the rear of the ensemble.  So this doesn't work for large groups; orchestras and such.

 

None of the above applies to a recording "session" for release.  The last one of those I did was a 30-member choir and we used 27 microphone.  Entirely different work and no sight line to worry about. 

 

To the OP.  Maybe collette heads on a light-weight mount (stereo 3-D printed?) on mono tied to the top speaker brackets on either side.  You'll need to make certain that the stress won't pull the speakers off the wall and go with the lightest rig you can put together, mics suspensions and cable).  If all you can fly are lavs, no matter which ones, I'd stick with the center stand and better mics.  Using two stands with a pair hung on (mono or wire rope) in the center will pull the stands over right away, even with a bunch of sand at the bottom.  Maybe super heavy steel stands might withstand but I'd be wary.  Never a good idea to have a rig fall on musos or audience.

 

If you work in this particular hall all the time, maybe talk to the powers that be about adding some good anchors and eye-bolts to the walls that you can use to fly a rig.  It'll be invisible with nothing attached, you can put it right where you need, and it'll be really strong.  Any way to drop mics in from the ceiling; lighting trough downstage or can lights you can fish a cable through to hold a mic?  Then move them into position with mono and push pins.  Again, how much money and time do they want to spend. 

 

D.

[Dalton Patterson]

First time I did this was with U87’s, and Technomad speakers. I got nicknamed “Noriega”. The technomad speakers were  the same model used for playing music 24/7 until he surrendered in Panama. 
 

I remember when the owner of the mics simply replied, hang them from the ceiling. My mind was blown, I got a wonderful learning opportunity on that gig. I also had to google what monofilament was. 

[Koyama]

20 hours ago, Dalton Patterson said:

Suspend monofilament lines from the ceiling with tiny robust i-hooks. Simply adjust your microphones to proper height. Use tan/white 300’ pair of Xlr and it will all but disappear. Getting to the ceiling will be tricky. IMHO when I see this rig in the field I don’t see the mics right away, then they stand out to me and I notice them, but not right away. 

Figure out your best way to suspend the mic, cage, xlr, etc at your own pace in the comfort of home. 

See if maintenance/utility has one of these laying around in the back parking lot somewhere. 

Good morning Dalton!

 

Actually my school has this kind of lifting machines, since the school has a very strong stage design department. In fact I believe they have ways to get to any location in the rooms.

 

However, the problem is I'm not in that department, so I may not have permission to use these tools. And also as I said, punching holes in the wall to install hooks could lead me to face serious consequences. So I'm looking for something a little milder than that

 

Anyway, thanks for your reply!

 

Koyama_P

 

19 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

Boundary mics at the edge or the stage are unobtrusive and can sound good. Cables can be run up against the walls in the isles. I have a pair of Sanken CUB-01 miniature boundary microphones that sounded pretty good for a quick choir recording.  Crown PZMs are popular boundary mics, but are generally larger than the Sanken but are still unobtrusive .

Good morning Rick,

 

This sounds like another great solution, and although I've never used it before, I'll be looking carefully at how it's implemented and what it sounds like.

 

Thanks a lot for your idea!

 

Koyama_P

[Koyama]

19 hours ago, OB1 said:

What type of microphone are you planning to use?

Do you have access to miniatures (i.e. DPA 4023s, CMC641,etc)?

Hello OB1,

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

At present, I mainly use a pair of Gefell M300 as my main microphones. Depending on the situation, they will be set in different positions (like for solo piano, it would be 3-6fts, and it would be on the stage; as chamber music, it would be about 12fts, always off the stage, right in the middle of the room axis, etc.). So far, they are working pretty well.

 

I have tried DPA 4099, and I also have kept one. I have used it in some situations like a violin sonata take place in a living room. But for stage, it would be another story, violinists may not feel comfortable when there's mic on their face. And the microphone placed on the body also tends to add some uncertainty (e.g. it falls off because of vibration).

 

Koyama_P

 

 

[Koyama]

18 hours ago, Wandering Ear said:

I would opt for suspending from the ceiling as long as you can arrange it. A setup with stands will always be more visually intrusive. 
DPA makes a version of the 4098 specifically meant for hanging in this type of situation and is quite non intrusive. I think it’s the 4098H

 

 

Good morning!

 

Thank you for your advice! I would do research on these DPA's microphones.

 

Have a nice day!

 

Koyama_P

 

 

[Koyama]

12 hours ago, tourtelot said:

Okay, location classical music recording is a whole 'nother "thing".  It is all I do any more.  I tend to be a "minimal mic guy" which means most of the music I record is captured on 2-4 really good mics.  Not BLMs, not lavs, not clip-ons.  First tier mics placed in the proper position.  Full orchestra, small ensembles, choruses and choirs, opera.

 

I almost always use a stand and rarely brook any discussion about where that stand will go.  There are some talks with video from time to time but once it is explained to the director of the group that there is a reason for the stand to be where it goes, I almost always get "my way".

 

Flying mic pairs overhead is alway a good choice if you, the audio engineer, has the time and the facility to do it.  I do it in a few halls to good effect.  However, it takes longer and, thus, costs more.  A lot of my jobs are load-in at 5:30 for a 7:30 performance, out by 10.  A stand is the only practical way to get my mics in the correct place.  Most of my clients know this and have no issues.

 

Because of live-streaming that came about during the pandemic, there is more video on these jobs than in years past and sometimes, there is nothing that will satisfy the client other than multi-mic'ing.  Almost never sounds as good but the stage "looks" cleaner.  And I make money on set up time and mic rentals.  But I like the sound of fewer mics.

 

I have done a few jobs recently where I have "flown" the main pair on an 18' boom mounted on a heavy-duty stand.  Most on this forum will know what I mean.  I will put up "collette-style" heads to keep the weight down but it opens up the front of the stage for sight lines.  This works great on small ensembles but remember, the group needs to fit on a 28' wide "stage" and also that the stand will always be in someone's eye-line unless it come over from the rear of the ensemble.  So this doesn't work for large groups; orchestras and such.

 

None of the above applies to a recording "session" for release.  The last one of those I did was a 30-member choir and we used 27 microphone.  Entirely different work and no sight line to worry about. 

 

To the OP.  Maybe collette heads on a light-weight mount (stereo 3-D printed?) on mono tied to the top speaker brackets on either side.  You'll need to make certain that the stress won't pull the speakers off the wall and go with the lightest rig you can put together, mics suspensions and cable).  If all you can fly are lavs, no matter which ones, I'd stick with the center stand and better mics.  Using two stands with a pair hung on (mono or wire rope) in the center will pull the stands over right away, even with a bunch of sand at the bottom.  Maybe super heavy steel stands might withstand but I'd be wary.  Never a good idea to have a rig fall on musos or audience.

 

If you work in this particular hall all the time, maybe talk to the powers that be about adding some good anchors and eye-bolts to the walls that you can use to fly a rig.  It'll be invisible with nothing attached, you can put it right where you need, and it'll be really strong.  Any way to drop mics in from the ceiling; lighting trough downstage or can lights you can fish a cable through to hold a mic?  Then move them into position with mono and push pins.  Again, how much money and time do they want to spend. 

 

D.

Hello,

 

Wow, thanks a lot for sharing your experience!

 

As for the live recording, I also prefer using minimal microphones. I'm using a pair of Gefell M300 as a main stereo set(along with a pair of omni if necessary), and it's also what I'm going to hang in the air. I really like the natural live sound they provide, though sometimes my costumers feel that I don't seem to do "a lot of work" for their recordings.

 

I just thought for a moment that perhaps using multiple microphones and setting them up directly on the stage might give the stage a better look and feel. After all, other things on stage, such as music stands and chairs, can somewhat diminish the presence of microphone stands. It would be much "quieter" than assuming a thick 20811 in the middle of the room, and the audience would not have to find a way to avoid it. Although such an approach may result in musicians playing sonatas and chamber musics not being able to stand in their most comfortable position (because of the need to inhabit bleeding). And we would then inevitably lose the reverb that the concert hall was designed to provide.

 

Another possible compromise adjustment would probably be to install a horizontal boom arm on 20811, so that at least this very thick microphone stand would not be on the axis of the concert hall.

 

Anyway, thanks a lot for your advice!

 

Koyama_P

 

[OB1]

I'm assuming this is a true live performance and nothing is being amplified through the PAs seen in the pics...

 

I asked about mini/colette mics because this is your best option for high quality equipment with the lowest possible profile. I also make custom stereo bars that can hold these mics at ORTF/NOS/DIN configurations for either the DPA, Neumann, or Schoeps products. So if you have access to these, things get much easier and I'll gladly send you a set to use so you can tune your mix.

 

As far as position, keep in mind that when these acoustically engineered listening rooms are designed the acoustics are directed to the seated audience. So the best sound will be found at head level and will be best right in the middle of the seating area. This is called the "sweet spot" and sometimes referred to as "FOB" (Front of Board). Flying mics really high will still capture the live sound but will not be optimal.

 

Ideally, I would run a very very low profile colette system from somewhere in the seats, head high. I've done this hundreds of times and if it is coordinated with the 'managers', especially including the music director and sound engineer, it has never been a problem. As far as the audience, since the mics are head high, they are not obstructing sight-lines for anyone in the vicinity (I will also generally leave a note on the seats directly surrounding with a description, and a 'thank you'). And since this is classical music in nature, there's not a lot of concern with capturing unwanted noise (talking, etc.). Even running supers towards the rear of the audience area will still produce some great results.

 

If none of that is possible, others have made some good recommendations.